I'm watching it on TV and just wanted to know what you all thought about it.

I -PERSONALLY- think that he should be put to the death penalty. He got arrested, put in prision, and got sentanced to that. He tried to appeal and they all got denied. I don't think just because he has "changed his ways" he should be any different than anyone else. If his appeals were accepted and thing than yes okay thats a different story. But they didn't and so I don't think it should be any different. If you kill someone, not just one person but multiple than you deserve it ! And he STILL doesnt even addmit to killing them.. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :reallymad

Okay I'm done rambling - Your turn ! :yes :lmao

Call me ignorant or behind times but who the heck is Tookie Williams???

I dont know anything about the story, but how can a person claim that he's changed his ways if he hasn't admitted to doing the crime in the first place?! That said, the whole point of prison is to rehabilitate people so that they can go back into society - if he really has changed his ways then I'm not sure he should be sent to his death.

i am whole-heartedly anti-death penalty, no matter what

lol he is the lead man of the Grips gang. He killed alot of people even though he says he doesnt. He is suppose to be put to the death tonight but everyone is debating on it. Hes written a bunch of books and has made alot of money. You should Rent the movie Redemption its about him , and Jamie Foxx is the actor for him. Its an awesome movie besides the fact that its about him lol

thats what I am saying, if he has "changed his ways" than why can't he admit to things hes done?? No matter what he is going to be in prision for life, so I'm glad for that. My mom works at a prision here and just because of this they were on total lock down today and tomorrow. Crazyness !

The Crips have a lot of history of drugs, fights and killings .

thats what I am saying, if he has "changed his ways" than why can't he admit to things hes done?? No matter what he is going to be in prision for life, so I'm glad for that. My mom works at a prision here and just because of this they were on total lock down today and tomorrow. Crazyness !


His time will come and he will be singing another tune when he leaves this world.

I totally agree !

His time will come and he will be singing another tune when he leaves this world.
He may well be, but is it our right to decide to send someone to death?

Are you talking about having this desicion or just in general? I think if they are going to show it all on tv and the internet then yes we have a right to talk about it and decided and post on whatever we want. And in general I think if you kill someone and have no feelings about it and can't even admit it then yes you should have to go through what they did. and its nothing even like that because for him it will just be going to sleep - think of all the pain that they all went through... Its sad. If you can atleast admit to it and say ya know I did it and I'm sorry, then its different. Killing multiple people is another thing ! Like I said my mom works out at a person and there are woman out there that are like yes I killed him I did it and I deserve to be here. They are okay with things that they have down and they know it was wrong. Its totally different with him. Just my opinion though :0)

He may well be, but is it our right to decide to send someone to death?

If you look at it from a religious point of view, I believe that sometimes God appoints certain people to take "evil" away from this world. JMO as funny as that sounds.

I didn't know he never admitted to the killings. If that's the case, than yes, death penalty.

Yeah I'm a loser like that if somethings going on then I just think I have to know as much as I can about it.. Sucks lol

Rach...

It has been said in the news that he had made comments as to the noises a man was making as he was laying there dying... Like he was braggin on the death of the man.

I am not sure if he has said he did it though. Just thought it was sick that he remembers that of all things.

Well, I can guarantee if I were the family of the few victims he personally killed, I'd be screaming DEATH PENALTY in that court!

I'm with you !

I just realized what I wrote wasn't true :hehe Edited since it was false information.

i am not going to say how i truly feel but at the end he is getting what he deserves.

Yes...I suppose I should take back what i said. God really is the only one to judge in the end and will punish accordingly.

and you know, I LOVE how these f'in celebrities try to get involved and act like they know it all!

Annoying assses

and you know, I LOVE how these f'in celebrities try to get involved and act like they know it all!

Annoying assses
Well, I guess they're just trying to use their status to make a difference. (but yes, they are annoying! :yes )

Their status, my ass :hehe

I think some of them probably do educate themselves before getting in front of the press, but most of them sound like a bunch of dumb twits.

Rach...

It has been said in the news that he had made comments as to the noises a man was making as he was laying there dying... Like he was braggin on the death of the man.

I am not sure if he has said he did it though. Just thought it was sick that he remembers that of all things.

Here ya go:

Schwarzenegger also pointed out the brutality of the crimes, noting that Williams allegedly said about one of the killings, "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." According to the governor's account, Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes.

You've got to be f'in kidding me:

Among the celebrities who took up Williams' cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in "Dead Man Walking"; and Bianca Jagger. During Williams' 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

I'm also completely against the death penalty. Something about who is entitled to throw the first stone........

let's leave it up to god to judge cause at the end he will pay for his sin's either way !

I'm also completely against the death penalty. Something about who is entitled to throw the first stone........

New Testament Principles

Some Christians believe that capital punishment does not apply to the New Testament and church age.

First we must acknowledge that God gave the principle of capital punishment even before the institution of the Old Testament law code. In Genesis 9:6 we read that "Whoever sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God, He made man." Capital punishment was instituted by God because humans are created in the image of God. The principle is not rooted in the Old Testament theocracy, but rather in the creation order. It is a much broader biblical principle that carries into the New Testament.

Even so, some Christians argue that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus seems to be arguing against capital punishment. But is He?

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is not arguing against the principle of a life for a life. Rather He is speaking to the issue of our personal desire for vengeance. He is not denying the power and responsibility of the government. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is speaking to individual Christians. He is telling Christians that they should not try to replace the power of the government. Jesus does not deny the power and authority of government, but rather He calls individual Christians to love their enemies and turn the other cheek.

Some have said that Jesus set aside capital punishment in John 8 when He did not call for the woman caught in adultery to be stoned. But remember the context. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus between the Roman law and the Mosaic law. If He said that they should stone her, He would break the Roman law. If He refused to allow them to stone her, He would break the Mosaic law (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22). Jesus' answer avoided the conflict: He said that he who was without sin should cast the first stone. Since He did teach that a stone be thrown (John 8:7), this is not an abolition of the death penalty.

In other places in the New Testament we see the principle of capital punishment being reinforced. Romans 13:1-7, for example, teaches that human government is ordained by God and that the civil magistrate is a minister of God. We are to obey government for we are taught that government does not bear the sword in vain. The fact that the Apostle Paul used the image of the sword further supports the idea that capital punishment was to be used by government in the New Testament age as well. Rather than abolish the idea of the death penalty, Paul uses the emblem of the Roman sword to reinforce the idea of capital punishment. The New Testament did not abolish the death penalty; it reinforced the principle of capital punishment.
_________________________________________________________________

He was senticed back in what, 1981? He shouldn't of lived an extra 24 years.

He's a murderer. He killed 4 people and founded one of the worst gangs.

When he was executed at 12:35am today, I'm sure God judged him very fairly.

C'mon...You guys are no fun...I'd like to see this turn into a debate and see what others think :mrgreen

I don't think he should have been put to death, and has anyone thought of the idea that he might actually be innocent of the crimes he was convicted for? There was never any actual proof or physical evidence, he was convicted on the testimony of some witnesses, there was a lot of inconsistencies in the trial and the comment of him laughing about some man dying, that did not come from him, it was something a witness said he 'supposedly' saw him do and say. Most of the witnesses also happened to be informants who were trying to save their own ass. He was convicted to begin with based on the fact of who he was, he was basically convicted before he even went to trial. Secondly, redemption is very much possible, and the fact that he didn't admit to crimes he just could possibly be innocent of, does not make him any less available for redemption. He was obviously not some saint, but I believe he was worthy of being allowed to live. If he would have been pardoned, its not like he was all of a sudden going to be let free, he still would have lived out the rest of his years in prison. And something that irritates me the most, is people who claim to be of faith, yet consistently seek revenge. At this point his death was not justice, but a fullfillment of vengence, something which I know for a fact 'God' does not advocate.

I beleive he got his just dues.... Granted in the end he did some good trying to bring peace with in the gangs, but there is so much violence atributed to ganags theses days. He is the "Father" of one of the biggest most feared gangs in the worlds. Yes he did write some compeling books, but he did make a pretty penny while sitting on Death Row. Did the families if his victims receive any of that? Probaly not. Nobel peace prize, whatever. He was correecting what he started in the first place. That does not make him worthy of such a prestigious award. As far as him pulling the race card, that is pure BS. I don't care if he was white, yellow, purple, green, blue or black. He took several peopels lives. The records from his interviews were very disturbing. Hopefully he was able to find peace within himself and with his maker prior to his execution.

He was obviously not some saint, but I believe he was worthy of being allowed to live. If he would have been pardoned, its not like he was all of a sudden going to be let free, he still would have lived out the rest of his years in prison. And something that irritates me the most, is people who claim to be of faith, yet consistently seek revenge. At this point his death was not justice, but a fullfillment of vengence, something which I know for a fact 'God' does not advocate.

He's not worthy of tax dollars being spent on him :hehe

I've said it before and I stand behind the belief that "evil" is to be taken away by man for God.

Here is something else:

As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens, pulling the sawed-off shotgun from under his jacket and told Owens to “shut up and keep walking.” While pointing the shotgun at Owens’ back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. Not long after, Williams blew out a security camera and then killed Owens, shooting him twice in the back at point blank range as he lay prone on the storage room floor.

The pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Owens testified that the end of the barrel was “very close” to Owens’ body when he was shot. One of the two wounds was described as “a near contact wound.”

After Williams murdered Owens, he, Darryl, Coward and Sims fled in the two cars and returned home to Los Angeles. The robbery netted Williams and his associates approximately $120.00. Once back in Los Angeles, Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens. Williams said that he “didn’t want to leave any witnesses.” Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.” Coward claims that Williams bragged about killing Owens. Williams said, “You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.” Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed about Owens’ death.

At approximately 5:00 am on March 11, 1979, court transcripts show that Stanley Williams entered the Brookhaven Motel at 10411 South Vermont Avenue. After entering the public lobby area, Williams broke down the door that led to the private office. Once inside the private office, Williams, using his shotgun, killed seventy-six year old Yen-I Yang; Williams also killed Yang’s wife, sixty-three year old Tsai-Shai Yang; lastly, Williams killed Yang’s daughter, forty-three year old Yee-Chen Lin. Williams then removed the currency from the cash register and fled the location.

As far as him pulling the race card, that is pure BS. I don't care if he was white, yellow, purple, green, blue or black. He took several peopels lives.

Wasn't Scott Peterson, who is white, sentenced the death penalty?

He shot the camera out, there is no proof that he actually was the one to shoot the man, the other two men that were with him that night had much to gain by trying to put their stories together and frame Williams.

I am glad to see that he has finally paid for his crimes.

"He was senticed back in what, 1981? He shouldn't of lived an extra 24 years.

He's a murderer. He killed 4 people and founded one of the worst gangs."

Rachel you are exactly right on that one. We were talking about it at work this morning and the death penalty should work within a few months of the decision. It is crazy to spend that much money and time on criminals on death row. He would have had plenty of time to repent of his sins if he would have been executed within a month of the decision. It is pure craziness to let these people sit on death row for years and years.

Some actual accounts from Sims, one of the guys that was with him, and many of the accounts from the DA are 'assumptions', there is no way he could know that he chambered any more rounds after shooting out the camera. And it should be known that his account of events differed from time to time, he was not always consistent with his story. And again, the two guys that were with him had a lot to gain by placing blame on Tookie, they had their own clemency to worry about.

D.A.'s Account

Quote:
As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the
register,
Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." (TT
2154). While
pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage
room. (TT 2154).
Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay
down, mother
fucker." (TT 2160). Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. (TT
2162). Williams
then fired the round into the security monitor. (TT 2156-2157, 2162).
Williams then
chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face
down on the
floor of the storage room. Williams then chambered a third round and fired
again into Owens'
back. (TT 2162).

Repeat: Chambered a round into the shotgun, then fired the round into a SECURITY CAMERA. Then chambered a "second" round and subsequently a third.


SIMS: He could of been kind of tall, I don't know, I really
wasn't paying attention. But, anyway, uh, he was
behind the counter, and he was getting the cigarettes.
And Darryl -- Wait, wait. Okay. We all went in, and he
was behind the counter. And Tookie and Blacky, as
soon as they walked in the door, they walk straight to
the back room. And Darryl told him -- pulled the gun
out and told the dude to go in the back room.
INV: Darryl pulled the .22 out?
SIMS: Yeah.
INV: He pulled his revolver out?
SIMS: I don't -- Did he pull it out? I guess he did pull it out,
and told the dude to go in the back room.
INV: Then what happened?
SIMS: And then he walked around and, I guess, he got the
money and the cigarettes. And then, uh, I was standing
by the door looking at Darryl, and, uh, I heard one shot.
INV: What was Darryl doing when you were looking at
him?
SIMS: He was getting the money out of the cash register.
And -- he was getting the money out of the cash
register, then, when the shot went off. And then, uh,
I heard one shot, and Blacky came running from out
the back and said, "Tookie done shot this guy." Like
that. And I said, "oh, no. So let's go." You know. And
as we was running out the door, I heard two more shots.
And so, uh, then Blacky got in the car, and uh, pulled
off. And Tookie, them was behind us, and so we let
them catch up with us.
INV: Let's go back for a second, when you got to the door to
leave there, did you see Tookie coming out of the back
room?
SIMS: Well, uh, when I got -- when -- okay. When I heard
the first shot, Blacky came from out of the back,
okay. As Blacky was coming out from the back,
there was two more shots. And as we was going out
the door, I looked back and I seen Tookie coming
from the back with the shotgun under his coat.

Repeat: I heard ONE shot, and Blacky came running from out the back and said, "Tookie done shot this guy."

And I should make it clear, he did deserve to do time for other crimes as a gang member such as armed robbery, however I am not convinced he was guilty and I do not believe he should have been put to death.

Why would he shoot the camera out?

I don't think he is innocent...

My 2 cents... Eye for an Eye.

I personally believe full heartedly in the death penalty and disgusted by CA lack of following through with it.

As for Williams. He did do good, unfortunatly it was after he had already murdered people and created one of, if not the most violent gang that has swept our nation.

They were commiting a robbery, it has been seen many times by people who rob liquor stores, they are trying to not get caught, but him robbing a store does not make him a murderer, especially when there is absolutely no physical evidence against him. I'm not advocating for crimes here, but for the fact that I do not belive he was convicted of a crime beyond resonable doubt. And that is the only way I can advocate the death penalty, I am not against putting people to death, but I am against putting possible innocent people to death. Just like I dont believe Scott Peterson was guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

info on him and his story: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/03/tookie.execution.ap/

As for Williams. He did do good, unfortunatly it was after he had already murdered people and created one of, if not the most violent gang that has swept our nation.

Right...and with that, I dont think writing 4 books and phamplets makes up for any lives that were taken and for starting the gang.

Also, hasn't he tried to appeal the death penalty other times and was rejected? There were reasons for that.

Also, again, what about the others who are sentenced the death penalty? Like (an example) a man who is in there for a murder that could possibly be false since we all know the system isn't exactly 100% correct. Now here is Williams who founded the Crips that have now turned into one of the most violent gangs where they now run our streets and have killed more than dozens of people & it's no more about respect and protection and got to sit his ass there for over 20 yrs. But yet celebrities and what not are speaking out for HIM? What about the other inmates who have been doing there time for awhile & scheduled?

Ridiculous. Celebrities need to shut their fat mouths.

moving this to debates :yeehaw

Yes Scott Peterson is white. When I was wayching the news a few people were like "It is a race thing".... Not everything that happens is a race thing... Geesh that is getting real OLD..... OJ got off, that wasn't a "Race thing" .... LOL

Yes Scott Peterson is white. When I was wayching the news a few people were like "It is a race thing".... Not everything that happens is a race thing... Geesh that is getting real OLD..... OJ got off, that wasn't a "Race thing" .... LOL
Oj got off cause... "IF THE GLOVE DOENST FIT..YOU MUST AQUIT":lmao :lmao :no

I don't believe we as tax payers should have to pay for them to live a life in prision...tax payers gave him a death sentance so thats what he should get.

If more people that were sentanced to death would actually be put to death many people would start getting smart and not do crimes knowing that they might get death for doing it. Why should we as tax payers, pay for them to eat, sleep, watch tv and then on top of it we even pay for some of them to work.

Boy us tax payers are really smart we pay the prision guards to be there and all the prision officials...plus then in turn we pay the prisioners to be there aswell...somethings got to give somewhere.

this makes me really sad. the death penalty really just makes me cry.

I don't believe we as tax payers should have to pay for them to live a life in prision...tax payers gave him a death sentance so thats what he should get.

If more people that were sentanced to death would actually be put to death many people would start getting smart and not do crimes knowing that they might get death for doing it. Why should we as tax payers, pay for them to eat, sleep, watch tv and then on top of it we even pay for some of them to work.

Boy us tax payers are really smart we pay the prision guards to be there and all the prision officials...plus then in turn we pay the prisioners to be there aswell...somethings got to give somewhere.

you put it better than i could!:happy

I agree with Rach whole heartedly!

I believe in the death penalty. Also, he got what he deserved, but atleast he had a painless death, but his victims died with so much pain and it was so gruesome.

You know, we aren't as hard like a lot of other countries. There are some countries who execute you without a trial.

Yep....Didn't someone post a link about what other countries do if you get caught drunk driving? Weren't at least 2 countries all about cutting your hand off or killing you? Maybe we should be that extreme right off the bat! :hehe

hmmm.....okay, but of 250 death row cases, 248 or so have been pardoned. What criteria's are we setting on the clemency act? who gets pardoned, who doesnt? This is only the 2nd execution that has been carried out since it was brought back to California in the 70s.

I support the death penalty. I think many who oppose the death penalty would sing another song if it was their husband, wife, child, mother, father etc who was killed. But that is JMO.

I dont disagree with you that I would feel that way if it was anyone in family in that situation....however, I do disagree with it in this case because if California is going to be all for death penalty, awesome. But dont pardon 248 people out of 250, what made Tookie Williams case so much more horrendous then others?

Ha, nm, I misread what you wrote Rachael :P

I havn't read everyone reply, so i don't know if this was already said but.. The way I look at it is.. He was the co-founder of the crips gang.. a gang who people die every day because of.. so even if the f**ker didn't kill anyone himself, he is a cause of thousands of deaths. Good Riddance.

I support the death penalty 100% AND I have an uncle who if the death penalty was in place in Massachusettes in the 70's would most like have been on death row..... I still support it regardless.

hmmm.....okay, but of 250 death row cases, 248 or so have been pardoned. What criteria's are we setting on the clemency act? who gets pardoned, who doesnt? This is only the 2nd execution that has been carried out since it was brought back to California in the 70s.


Tookie was actually the 12th execution since it has come back into effect since 1977.


this came from the Dept of Corrections:


California Death Row Statistics

Source: California Department of Corrections


California Death Row Population (As of June 7, 2005)
Men 630
Women 15
Total 645


Ethnicity (As of June 7, 2005)
White 256 (39.69%)
Black 229 (35.50%)
Hispanic 121 (18.76%)
Other 39 (6.05%)

California Executions: 1977-2005 (As of August 4, 2005)
Men 11
Women 0
Total 11

how many have been pardoned though? The majority.....

And I should make it clear, he did deserve to do time for other crimes as a gang member such as armed robbery, however I am not convinced he was guilty and I do not believe he should have been put to death.

I'm not sure if this has been said already or not but when I saw this I had to respond.. It doesnt matter at all if they can prove that he killed anyone he is the FOUNDER of the Crips, the biggest gang in the US. Crips and Bloods are the 2 main gangs and are always out for each other. Its a huge thing where I live. No matter if him himself killed someone there is NO DOUBT None what so ever that he has not ordered people to die. To start a huge gang like that, you deserve to die. There is kids I've grown up with that are in gangs because thats all they think they can do, and thats all they know. Its sad , its extremely said, but look at how many young people he has taken. How many lives HIS gang has taken. Its not right, he got what he deserves on earth, now he answers to God which will be the right thing.

He may well be, but is it our right to decide to send someone to death?

I say yes. When that person kills other people, he gives up that right. How is it fair that he deserves to live, when other people died because of him? JMO.

I myself am an ex gang member. :banghead :duh STUPID trust me.. :hehe And yeah, I have known many of people who should get put to death. The shit they have done. One of my bestfriends at the age of 13 was brutially murdered. His killer was suppose to be his friend. He did not get the death penalty. I do wish he had though.
I am thankful Tookie was trying to redeem himself, persay... ( I dont think he could EVER redeem himself for the murders, but the gang life, yes.) by educating kids/teenagers against gang life. Hopefully he impacted someones life in a positive way.

But.. I do agree, eye for an eye.

I say yes. When that person kills other people, he gives up that right. How is it fair that he deserves to live, when other people died because of him? JMO.

I agree.

Who gives him or anyone else the right to kill an innocent person who hasn't done anything wrong.

If you commit cold blooded murder i believe you have then given up any rights you have to ANYTHING. That's why murder is illegal...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051213-1441-williamsexecution.html

"If they think they succeeded by killing him in getting people to forget about him, they have done just the opposite," said Barbara Becnel, his collaborator and most vocal supporter.

What an idiot. This is the problem with celebrities.

Does she honestly think that is why the governor didn't grant him clemency, so we'll forget about him? Idiot.

No kidding Rach ! Its so stupid and sad to me that he STILL couldn't admit to killing those people.. Its just not right. He knew he was going to die, and if he wasnt he was going to be in prision for the rest of his life, why hide something like that? Makes him look even more idiotic.. and less we forget GUILTY !

HAs anyone ever changed their mind on issues like death penalty or abortion because of a debate? No. Because we make these decisions on a totally emotional basis. THEN we make up a rationalization for it. That's what teh supreme court justices do, that's what whinos do, it's what all of us do.

Sorry for the bitchy tone but it's been a long and very argumentative day.

Whinos? :mrgreen

it's a professional legal term ;)