Do you think today's military is "weaker" compared to let's say 10 yrs ago or 20 yrs ago? I am not talking bout weaponary, tactics, wars; I am talking about the person who is in the military. Do you think that today's generations are going in thinking that it is going to be an easier ride in life then previous generations? Do you think that the work ethics have dropped since 10yrs/20yrs etc ago?

Yes, some people tend to use the military nowadays as a "way out". I cannot count how many people I've heard say:

I didn't sign up for this, I just signed up for the paycheck (which is admirable, signing up to do what you need to do for your family, but you have to take into account the whole package.

Or my favorite: I didn't sign up to fight, I signed up to get my education. (What is the military for?)

Well, yes and no. I think societally people have easier lives. So, we have more of a sense of entitlement than previously. I wouldn't say 10, but possibly 20 years ago.
I think there are definitely some people in the military that are "weaker" than before, but in most cases after X number of years, military life beats the weakness out. Maybe...:dunno

Have you seen the PT requirements for females? PATHETIC. My two year old can do 30 pushups in two minutes. :rolleyes

I'm not saying that as a whole women "bring down" the military, not at all, but if they aren't expecting more out of them than that...well, some aren't going to give it, ya know?

I'm going to leave it at that because I can already see myself being flamed.

Oh my god... my hubby was literally just complaining about this.
He got into the navy back in 1996, got out in 2001 to attend university. Now he is back in... and boy is he unhappy. He is not a fan with the new generation of sailor.
I am not sure if we can pinpoint the problem, maybe its just the younger generation as a whole... who knows.
:)

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno


I completely agree Becca!

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

:hail

As with most things in our life, "weakness" and "strength" are relative to our own personal life experiences. Things that caused petrifying fear in people from my generation, such as public speaking, is much less prevalent in the MMO/Teamspeak using people in this generation.

Working longer hours isn't necessarily a good thing if the job could have been done in three hours if we'd used ALL of our resources, such as the internet or other information-sharing resource. The downside to huge wealths of information, of course, are that many people in this generation expect "immediate" results. Projects that require consistency and patience are often given up on quickly. There's no cheat code for persistence and pride in ownership.

Today, I see that the Navy is divided into generation gaps. Die-hard old schoolers will work harder, longer days relying on their own knowledge to complete tasks. Younger generationers will work long enough to complete the task using the collective knowledge of their peers the world over. Neither is wrong, and neither is right. If we could combine these two generations, we'd have some formidable sailors who worked incessantly and were HIGHLY effective at it.

Growing up around the military my whole life and watching today's military just makes me sick.

PT requirements especially in the Navy are a joke now days. You walk on a Naval base and look around more then half of who you see are over weight and undershape. The so called programs that are supposed to hold these people accountable for their weight issues is a joke. There is no accountability anymore it seems.

Kids coming in and thinking they don't have to do squat and then bitch when they do. What did they think, the military was a 'free' ride.

I am soo damn sick of hearing bout people not signing up for anything or going to war. :suspect hmm hello?! You joined the military and last time I looked the military DOES engage in combat. :rolleyes

:edit I also think that Bootcamp is NOT doing a good enough job weeding out the weak links anymore

Have you seen the PT requirements for females? PATHETIC. My two year old can do 30 pushups in two minutes. :rolleyes

I'm not saying that as a whole women "bring down" the military, not at all, but if they aren't expecting more out of them than that...well, some aren't going to give it, ya know?

I'm going to leave it at that because I can already see myself being flamed.

Look at the Marine Corps - their PT requirements for females has gotten more in line with the mens. 3 mile run (up from 1 1/2 mile), 2 minutes of sit-ups (up from 1 min) and the arm hang.

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

agree and my hubby agrees with you too. he was telling me about this yesterday since they ran the PFA and he was saying that some people have a hard ass time even getting close to the requirements :dunno

Have you seen the PT requirements for females? PATHETIC. My two year old can do 30 pushups in two minutes. :rolleyes

I'm not saying that as a whole women "bring down" the military, not at all, but if they aren't expecting more out of them than that...well, some aren't going to give it, ya know?

I'm going to leave it at that because I can already see myself being flamed.

I was explaining this to my mom, who's a parole officer in Texas. She was stunned that there was a difference between males and females in regards to physical fitness. Officers in Texas are required to complete a series of challenges all within an alloted time - and there are only TWO categories: Pass or Fail. There is no "Male/Female" checkbox.

If I, as a male, am to be held to a higher physical standard, then I want a higher paycheck. Males and females are given the exact same billets, collateral duties and taskings in the military, given the exact same advancement exams and required to stand the exact same watchstations - so why the difference in fitness? I know the answer, of course, but it seems such a glaring contrast that's never been addressed really.

Look at the Marine Corps - their PT requirements for females has gotten more in line with the mens. 3 mile run (up from 1 1/2 mile), 2 minutes of sit-ups (up from 1 min) and the arm hang.


They're still nowhere NEAR equal, though, Marines and Army both have moved up the female reqs to the two minute increments, but they are required to do less than half of what the men do in that same time period!

I'm all for women in the military, and I'm all for women in combat, if they want to do it, but pull your weight at least, damn!

There was a girl in DH's company who got in trouble yesterday for not having a clean weapon...she has never even cleaned one before. All through basic and now here, she's smiled pretty and had some male soldier there to do it for her. Happens a lot, I'm sure that isn't news to anybody.

Train females seperately, hold them to the same standards, and integrate units after training. It seems simple to me, but what do I know?

Train females seperately, hold them to the same standards, and integrate units after training. It seems simple to me, but what do I know?

That is how the Marine Corps trains. Males and Females Separate.

As far as running times and number of reps - men and women are built differently. Standards are based off of Averages. The Average Man runs faster than the Average Woman.

I was explaining this to my mom, who's a parole officer in Texas. She was stunned that there was a difference between males and females in regards to physical fitness. Officers in Texas are required to complete a series of challenges all within an alloted time - and there are only TWO categories: Pass or Fail. There is no "Male/Female" checkbox.

If I, as a male, am to be held to a higher physical standard, then I want a higher paycheck. Males and females are given the exact same billets, collateral duties and taskings in the military, given the exact same advancement exams and required to stand the exact same watchstations - so why the difference in fitness? I know the answer, of course, but it seems such a glaring contrast that's never been addressed really.

completely agree. if both are in the end required to do the same job and asked to put thier lives on the line. Yea, physical requirements need to be equal.

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

Becca, I couldn't agree more. My husband is Old School... and wishes that more sailors in today's Navy were as well. He was all for going RDC until he realized that it's a cake walk compared to what he went through. DH had a guy at one of his prior commands try to pull the "stress card"... he said something to the effect of when he couldn't handle something at Boot, he told them so and they slacked off. I can't handle this, go easy on me... DH had a field day with that guy.

If you enlist, you should expect to be completely broken and transformed into what the military requires of you.

There are WAY too many people in just for the paycheck and benefits who don't care about the honor and pride of serving your country.

Growing up around the military my whole life and watching today's military just makes me sick.

PT requirements especially in the Navy are a joke now days. You walk on a Naval base and look around more then half of who you see are over weight and undershape. The so called programs that are supposed to hold these people accountable for their weight issues is a joke. There is no accountability anymore it seems.

Kids coming in and thinking they don't have to do squat and then bitch when they do. What did they think, the military was a 'free' ride.

I am soo damn sick of hearing bout people not signing up for anything or going to war. :suspect hmm hello?! You joined the military and last time I looked the military DOES engage in combat. :rolleyes

:edit I also think that Bootcamp is NOT doing a good enough job weeding out the weak links anymore

Very well said!!

That is how the Marine Corps trains. Males and Females Separate.

As far as running times and number of reps - men and women are built differently. Standards are based off of Averages. The Average Man runs faster than the Average Woman.

What Donna said.:yes

Here's something that gets me.

These are the requirements for a 17-19 yr old female to just PASS the PRT:

Sit Ups: 50
Push Ups: 19
1.5 Mile Run: 15:00

Now, here's the requirements for a 30-34 yr. old MALE (my category):

Sit Ups: 40
Push Ups: 31
1.5 Mile Run: 14:30

I am AT LEAST 15 years older and have almost the same requirements.

Something else that REALLY bothers me is that a 45-49 yr. old male has to do at least 21 pushups to pass, while a female 30 years YOUNGER has to do 19.

I know that men and women are different in their build and structure and that it's easier for men to add muscle mass. I get that. I also understand that the test is designed to test core body strength and endurance. A crate of ammo doesn't care the sex of the person picking it up, it still weighs 58 pounds.

Now, here's the requirements for a 30-34 yr. old MALE (my category):

Sit Ups: 40
Push Ups: 31
1.5 Mile Run: 14:30


I will be 30 next week. I honestly do not see why a female of the same age cant do this.

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

:yes

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

:agree

Dh has to do ALOT of extra BS because he works with students fresh out of boot camp. It gets ridiculous, you would think they where babies sometimes :no

:agree

Dh has to do ALOT of extra BS because he works with students fresh out of boot camp. It gets ridiculous, you would think they where babies sometimes :no

I know for a fact that's one of the MAIN reasons DH doesn't want to do RDC or instructor duty... He simply doesn't have the patience..

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno

Growing up around the military my whole life and watching today's military just makes me sick.

PT requirements especially in the Navy are a joke now days. You walk on a Naval base and look around more then half of who you see are over weight and undershape. The so called programs that are supposed to hold these people accountable for their weight issues is a joke. There is no accountability anymore it seems.

Kids coming in and thinking they don't have to do squat and then bitch when they do. What did they think, the military was a 'free' ride.

I am soo damn sick of hearing bout people not signing up for anything or going to war. :suspect hmm hello?! You joined the military and last time I looked the military DOES engage in combat. :rolleyes

:edit I also think that Bootcamp is NOT doing a good enough job weeding out the weak links anymore

I was explaining this to my mom, who's a parole officer in Texas. She was stunned that there was a difference between males and females in regards to physical fitness. Officers in Texas are required to complete a series of challenges all within an alloted time - and there are only TWO categories: Pass or Fail. There is no "Male/Female" checkbox.

If I, as a male, am to be held to a higher physical standard, then I want a higher paycheck. Males and females are given the exact same billets, collateral duties and taskings in the military, given the exact same advancement exams and required to stand the exact same watchstations - so why the difference in fitness? I know the answer, of course, but it seems such a glaring contrast that's never been addressed really.

Hallelujah AMEN!!! :hail :woohoo I absolutely agree 100%

I know for a fact that's one of the MAIN reasons DH doesn't want to do RDC or instructor duty... He simply doesn't have the patience..

Same with mine. Mine refuses to teach at an "A" school for the same reasons.

:agree

Dh has to do ALOT of extra BS because he works with students fresh out of boot camp. It gets ridiculous, you would think they where babies sometimes :no

We are dealing with some of the same "somebody change my diaper" sailors right now, and my Dh has to go on an underway because they didnt get their shit together in a timely (PLENTLY OF TIME) manner. :reallymad

We are dealing with some of the same "somebody change my diaper" sailors right now, and my Dh has to go on an underway because they didnt get their shit together in a timely (PLENTLY OF TIME) manner. :reallymad

I think I would have been handing out travel packages of baby wipes.. :lmao Just incase they're not sure how to wipe their own butts.

Same with mine. Mine refuses to teach at an "A" school for the same reasons.

Mine's getting quite a thick layer of salt and crust on him... ;) I honestly think he's go recruiter before he'd take any kind of instructor billet. And he HATES the thought of recruiting.

There is too much damn PC'ing going around in life that is stopping what should be the real hard version of BC and schooling. There is too much hand holding going on and babying. The military in general needs to stand up and say enough of the coddling (I think that's the word Im looking for) time to stand up and be a man.

I think I would have been handing out travel packages of baby wipes.. :lmao Just incase they're not sure how to wipe their own butts.

:lmao You totally should. :teehee

:lmao You totally should. :teehee

:lmao You know it's really bad, but 9 times out of 10 those are the sailors that get into major financial trouble as well. All because they're not ready to be adults!

There is too much damn PC'ing going around in life that is stopping what should be the real hard version of BC and schooling. There is too much hand holding going on and babying. The military in general needs to stand up and say enough of the coddling (I think that's the word Im looking for) time to stand up and be a man.

Doesnt it make you sick? I am literally SICK from all the damn PC bullshit. Its really making me postal! Maybe I need to up my meds.... wait... I know the problem, but I dont want to start a war :lol Lets just say last year where I was, it was hardly any noticable PC, only on the news :lmao

One thing DH has said to me time and time again since we have been here is how lax everything/everyone is. He HATES it with a passion.

One thing DH has said to me time and time again since we have been here is how lax everything/everyone is. He HATES it with a passion.

I think a lot of commands are far too lax, and when a CO wants to go by the book the guys get pissed because they're not used to how things SHOULD be done!

One thing DH has said to me time and time again since we have been here is how lax everything/everyone is. He HATES it with a passion.

Referring to the "west coast" Navy? If so, I TOTALLY know what your talking about.

Referring to the "west coast" Navy? If so, I TOTALLY know what your talking about.

It's like that the further you get from DC...DH says he won't ever be stationed in Norfolk because of all the politics, but I'm pushing for FL...

Referring to the "west coast" Navy? If so, I TOTALLY know what your talking about.

:yes

We would give anything to go to norfolk if it got us back east!!! LOL

I think today's military has things alot easier then even the military of 10 years ago. I feel that the military is the military, training should be rigid and stringent. These days, recruit company commanders have to be "nice"...and I'm sorry but ultimately, the military shouldn't be "nice". I'm one of those people that thinks you should have your a** handed to you in bootcamp (I did!). If you're a piss poor sailor, your chain of command should be able to tell you to pull your head out and get your act together, without having to worry about offending you or being politically correct.

Call me a savage. :dunno


I agree! Navy boot camp is way different now than it was 10 years ago when I enlisted. One of the guys in my DH's previous command said they did not march in boot camp to the galley, etc. Everything was brought to them! :wowsers They only got cycled once too! :wowsers

Hmm, my military experience is obviously different than all of yours. LMAO. My husband wasn't in an MOS they needed brute strength. They needed to be smart. So, from my point of view, the military is stronger in some ways and weaker in others. I don't think you can just disregard the type of weaponry and warfare when answering this question. The military is much stronger than it used to be for one simple reason... better weapons and smarter people developing and operating those weapons. I don't think you can disregard the many different kinds of strengths it takes to be a soldier. We aren't a hand to hand combat military anymore because very little of war is actually hand to hand. So, how important is it to make sure that every soldier is a certain physical strength when very little of the actual jobs require physical strength? It doesn't matter how many push-ups you can do, if you don't know how to work the equipment you are trained to operate then you are useless. It doesn't matter how fast you can run, if you don't know how to spot a threatening car at a check point, it doesn't matter how you did on your PT test, you will still die in the explosion if they detonate next to you. An IED doesn't care how many sit-ups you can do in two minutes, it will kill you just the same if you are in the wrong seat of the HMMWV when it rolls over one.

So, in some ways yes, because the requirements for enlistment have gone down that effects moral strength of the military. Because the monetary bonuses have gone up, that effects the level of dedication in the military. Because of the PTSD epidemic from this war, the mental strength of the military has been effected. And because of the lowering PT standards, the physical strength of the military has been effected. In relation to the way the military is actually run now, I worry less about the physical strength than I do the mental strength though.

See, I do not think it is a matter of physical standards... although I do agree with what the others have said. I think my hubby's main complaint was just the attitude that he sees... the newbies, the newly promoted... I think he is bothered by the whole "me first" attitude that has sprung up more of late.
BTW... I need to set up a "play date" with some of these crusty hubbys, maybe then he would have someone else to bitch to besides me.
I have never been in the military and I know even less, so I never know what to say when he starts to rant and rave.
:)

To me, I do not think weaponary, tactics etc is what the debate is about. It's about the PERSON in the military. The drive and determination err more like LACK there of. I don't care how smart a person is, but if they can not stay in shape and bitch because they have to get their hands dirty then get the hell out of the military.

IMO, too many people are relying on technology these days.

When I asked my question it was more based on character. The character of today's military sucks ass compared to other generations.

Yeah, I don't think that being physically strong equals having character. LOL.

Both Mike and my grandfathers were in the Navy, we see a difference between their attitudes towards Navy and some sailor's attitudes today towards the Navy. Unfourtunately, there are bad eggs in every realm of life, even the military. But I have met some sailors who are so unwaveringly dedicated and committed to the Navy that it is inspiring. Conversely, I've met some sailors that I really don't think should be in the military. If you don't want to go to war when called-don't sign up! I still respect every military member though, no matter what. Every member makes sacrifices, some more than others.

Hmm, my military experience is obviously different than all of yours. LMAO. My husband wasn't in an MOS they needed brute strength. They needed to be smart. So, from my point of view, the military is stronger in some ways and weaker in others. I don't think you can just disregard the type of weaponry and warfare when answering this question. The military is much stronger than it used to be for one simple reason... better weapons and smarter people developing and operating those weapons. I don't think you can disregard the many different kinds of strengths it takes to be a soldier. We aren't a hand to hand combat military anymore because very little of war is actually hand to hand. So, how important is it to make sure that every soldier is a certain physical strength when very little of the actual jobs require physical strength? It doesn't matter how many push-ups you can do, if you don't know how to work the equipment you are trained to operate then you are useless. It doesn't matter how fast you can run, if you don't know how to spot a threatening car at a check point, it doesn't matter how you did on your PT test, you will still die in the explosion if they detonate next to you. An IED doesn't care how many sit-ups you can do in two minutes, it will kill you just the same if you are in the wrong seat of the HMMWV when it rolls over one.

So, in some ways yes, because the requirements for enlistment have gone down that effects moral strength of the military. Because the monetary bonuses have gone up, that effects the level of dedication in the military. Because of the PTSD epidemic from this war, the mental strength of the military has been effected. And because of the lowering PT standards, the physical strength of the military has been effected. In relation to the way the military is actually run now, I worry less about the physical strength than I do the mental strength though.

I totally agree with you!!! (What's new? :rofl)

Physical strength mattered much more during, say, WW2... when weapons and technology were primitive in comparison to what we have today. My 87-year-old grandfather is a highly decorated WW2 vet... and hearing his stories about hand-to-hand combat blows me away. Physical strength definitely mattered more.

Thank God for our troops, technology has evolved.

Also, to touch on the original question... I think it mostly has to do with the current generation of 20-somethings. We're a pretty spoiled generation... it's no wonder why some people only do the bare minimum to get by. It's a cultural trend... I don't think it has much to do with the military... it's just how our society is at the moment.

Have you seen the PT requirements for females? PATHETIC. My two year old can do 30 pushups in two minutes. :rolleyes

I'm not saying that as a whole women "bring down" the military, not at all, but if they aren't expecting more out of them than that...well, some aren't going to give it, ya know?

I'm going to leave it at that because I can already see myself being flamed.

no, i know what you mean. Why do those requirements for women have to be so low?? Women are little fragile baby dolls: most of the time they can do more than some of the men. I don't know about being equal but at least make it more than 60%. We aren't that breakable you know.

To me, I do not think weaponary, tactics etc is what the debate is about. It's about the PERSON in the military. The drive and determination err more like LACK there of. I don't care how smart a person is, but if they can not stay in shape and bitch because they have to get their hands dirty then get the hell out of the military.

IMO, too many people are relying on technology these days.

When I asked my question it was more based on character. The character of today's military sucks ass compared to other generations.

EVERYONE'S character sucks more these days.

I totally agree with you!!! (What's new? :rofl)

Physical strength mattered much more during, say, WW2... when weapons and technology were primitive in comparison to what we have today. My 87-year-old grandfather is a highly decorated WW2 vet... and hearing his stories about hand-to-hand combat blows me away. Physical strength definitely mattered more.

Thank God for our troops, technology has evolved.

Also, to touch on the original question... I think it mostly has to do with the current generation of 20-somethings. We're a pretty spoiled generation... it's no wonder why some people only do the bare minimum to get by. It's a cultural trend... I don't think it has much to do with the military... it's just how our society is at the moment.

Yeah, that was what I was trying to say. I really think it is just society as a whole. Not just the military.

I was talking to MIL about this a couple months ago. Things are WAY different from when she was in in the 90s or when she joined in the 70s. DH hates the fact that the rules are so laxed compared to how they used to be. He likes the strict by the book stuff.

no, i know what you mean. Why do those requirements for women have to be so low?? Women are little fragile baby dolls: most of the time they can do more than some of the men. I don't know about being equal but at least make it more than 60%. We aren't that breakable you know.

Thank you! :hail

This is what I was trying to say-it's downright degrading, IMO. "Poor little giiiirls can't do pushups, so let's go easy on them." BULLSH%$. If they can't do the same as the men boot their asses out and move on.

The physical stuff IS important, it's part of tearing down individuals and building up cohesive units. It's at the very core of military life. Skimp on that, and you have the crap we see today.

I don't care if someone's IQ is 240 and they can build laser rockets with their feet, if they aren't worn out and broken down during bootcamp they will never have that bonding experience, the same pride...etc.

I think that MMs now forget that they are a soldier first and their rate second. A janitor is still a soldier and needs to be able to fight hand to hand. So does that computer guy. The bad guys who get hostages are not going to say "oh your just the janitor/computer guy? oh well sorry let me let you go."

When XF was here, we discussed this to great lengths. He told me you get a "Stress Card" now, so if the Drill Sgt is screaming in your face and you can't handle it, you can hand him your "stress card" and he has to stop :rolleyes Definitely lame, and weak.

When XF was here, we discussed this to great lengths. He told me you get a "Stress Card" now, so if the Drill Sgt is screaming in your face and you can't handle it, you can hand him your "stress card" and he has to stop :rolleyes Definitely lame, and weak.

:rofl are you shitting me? NO F'ing way!!! That is absolutely pathetic. BC is breeding a bunch of weak ass sissys

I agree with Trina & Heidi. I also do not feel that the militaries weaknesses are because of female PT standards. I worked JUST as hard at my job as my male counter parts. In fact a female often has to work twice as hard to get the same amount of recognition. I went from a division that truly appreciated my skill, dedication, & hard work to a division that would not let females work on the air side of the house. A waste of my many years of LEARNING how to sit the IDs and TIC watches. I was placed on surface rotation which was a position way beneath my rank, training, & skill. Even after quickly requalifying I (AND NO OTHER) female in that division was allowed over to the air side. In fact after I left that command the division was investigated for sexual harassment & no I was not the whistle blower. I learned a lot of things in that division, and many leadership tactics but I also saw first hand what rampant sex favoritism does to a division & its morale.

The male/female divide/problems in the military are not all the fault of the female. there are lazy ass whiny SIQ queen males in the military just as there are females, it just gets noticed more when it is a female because females in the miltary live under a constant spotlight.

Sorry off on a tangent I just get so tired of all the discredit that military females get. Women have served in EVERY single war this Nation has ever been in. They have served with honor & distinction, they have worked as spies, nurses, soldiers, cavalry, etc. Even if it mean't they had to pretend they were a man in order to get the job. Women are not making the military weak, politics if anything is at fault.

OH yeah they had stress cards when I went to boot camp almost 11 years ago now, NOT ONCE did I EVER see anyone use them male or female.

I agree with Trina & Heidi. I also do not feel that the militaries weaknesses are because of female PT standards. I worked JUST as hard at my job as my male counter parts. In fact a female often has to work twice as hard to get the same amount of recognition. I went from a division that truly appreciated my skill, dedication, & hard work to a division that would not let females work on the air side of the house. A waste of my many years of LEARNING how to sit the IDs and TIC watches. I was placed on surface rotation which was a position way beneath my rank, training, & skill. Even after quickly requalifying I (AND NO OTHER) female in that division was allowed over to the air side. In fact after I left that command the division was investigated for sexual harassment & no I was not the whistle blower. I learned a lot of things in that division, and many leadership tactics but I also saw first hand what rampant sex favoritism does to a division & its morale.

The male/female divide/problems in the military are not all the fault of the female. there are lazy ass whiny SIQ queen males in the military just as there are females, it just gets noticed more when it is a female because females in the miltary live under a constant spotlight.

Sorry off on a tangent I just get so tired of all the discredit that military females get. Women have served in EVERY single war this Nation has ever been in. They have served with honor & distinction, they have worked as spies, nurses, soldiers, cavalry, etc. Even if it mean't they had to pretend they were a man in order to get the job. Women are not making the military weak, politics if anything is at fault.

OH yeah they had stress cards when I went to boot camp almost 11 years ago now, NOT ONCE did I EVER see anyone use them male or female.

The whole question had nothing to do with men vs. women though. But I do agree with some of the things you said

I agree with Trina & Heidi. I also do not feel that the militaries weaknesses are because of female PT standards. I worked JUST as hard at my job as my male counter parts. In fact a female often has to work twice as hard to get the same amount of recognition. I went from a division that truly appreciated my skill, dedication, & hard work to a division that would not let females work on the air side of the house. A waste of my many years of LEARNING how to sit the IDs and TIC watches. I was placed on surface rotation which was a position way beneath my rank, training, & skill. Even after quickly requalifying I (AND NO OTHER) female in that division was allowed over to the air side. In fact after I left that command the division was investigated for sexual harassment & no I was not the whistle blower. I learned a lot of things in that division, and many leadership tactics but I also saw first hand what rampant sex favoritism does to a division & its morale.

The male/female divide/problems in the military are not all the fault of the female. there are lazy ass whiny SIQ queen males in the military just as there are females, it just gets noticed more when it is a female because females in the miltary live under a constant spotlight.

Sorry off on a tangent I just get so tired of all the discredit that military females get. Women have served in EVERY single war this Nation has ever been in. They have served with honor & distinction, they have worked as spies, nurses, soldiers, cavalry, etc. Even if it mean't they had to pretend they were a man in order to get the job. Women are not making the military weak, politics if anything is at fault.

OH yeah they had stress cards when I went to boot camp almost 11 years ago now, NOT ONCE did I EVER see anyone use them male or female.


While I agree with some of what you said. I dont agree with most. Yes there was women in every war but now there are more, alot more. The standards should be the same across the board. My dh does things below his training and quals. Thats not just a female thing. I went through boot 9 years ago and there was no stress card but I was Army not Navy. I think the stress card is a load of ****.

I wasn't saying it like that, Green Mammy...I mean they need to start expecting the same from women, not treating them like lesser people. I think we're agreeing but using different words. :) :chest

wow, reading this threw me for a loop, my dh has been saying this ever since i've known him "this isn't the same army as it was when i joined" he's CONSTANTLY saying how much easier they have it now and he hates it, he says when he joined they were much stricter etc etc than they are now and wishes it would still be that way.

i was never in the military and nobody in my immediate family is so i really wouldn't know, but some of the shit he tells me about his soldiers disgusts me, and i know virtually nothing about how things should be run. although i agree with whoever said that it is not just in the military, it is a symptom of the way our society is right now.

the stress card thing is such bs. i'm sorry but you're in the military, if you can't handle it get the hell out. or don't join, or w/e.

I talked to my FIL about this last night and he made some good points... He was in the military back in the 70's and said that there are some ways the military is weaker and some ways it is stronger. As far as warfare, effectiveness, tactics, etc, it is stronger because it is more advanced. War is not fought the same way it was back in WWII era, and our military has adjusted to the technological advances better than any other military in the world. Most service members never look their "enemy" in the eye.

He also believes we are weaker, but that the weakness we suffer from now is a symptom of a bigger problem. He believes that the military (actually the country) has nothing to unite it anymore. President Bush asking people to go out and shop in response to 9/11 instead of giving things in their lives up like the country was asked to back in WWII is an example of that. Back in WWII and even as recently as the 80's the military felt like it had a purpose. Fighting fascism or fighting communism was a cause that everyone could get behind. Once those causes disappeared interest in joining the military wasn't as strong as it was before. This fighting terrorism shit isn't the same kind of uniting cause. People see how the we contributed to this problem ourselves with our involvement in the middle east, and going to war with a country that did nothing to us and had nothing to do with 9/11 was a HUGE dividing factor. People also recognize that this threat and this war isn't clean cut, like fighting the Axis in WWII was. Fighting terrorism is too ambiguous for people to get as passionate about. To try and make up for the lack of interest in the military, they have to offer more and more money to people to get them to join. That is just NOT going to breed people who are in it for the honor or feel that dying for their country is worth it. People feel more like dying for their government is a waste, especially after Vietnam.

As for the stress card thing... my husband went through basic 9 years ago and stress cards were in existence there, but his unit never got them. What they are though, is a card that if you are feeling stressed out you can ask for a 5 minute break and the drill sergeant will back off. Then the recruit has to return after the break and the drill sergeants get in their face even more. What it really did was encourage the privates to consider whether to take an immediate reward in exchange for the certainty of being punished more in the future, or to just suck it up and get the misery over with. Also, after the stress card is used, typically the drill sergeants will punish the entire unit... which leads into my next point...

The whole section of Full Metal Jacket where the drill instructor would get in individuals' faces, that has been stopped. Just like the art of warfare changes, the way that recruits are treated in basic changes, too. It is not in the best interest of the military to tear individuals down. Instead they tear the company down as a unit because then they are more likely to build themselves back up as a team. The purpose is to keep more people in the military and avoid things outside of warfare that cause PTSD. Recruits don't go into the military automatically knowing how to deal with the stresses of the military and especially not with the skills to deal with war itself. That is something that has to be taught, otherwise why have basic at all? Again, it is not in the best interest of the military to tear service members down before they ever get started, and individually singling them out works against the idea that they need to work as a unit to accomplish their mission and keep each other alive.

Or how about this... The government knows things that we just don't know about how to effectively train the military, and we should trust them. If that line of logic is good enough for why we went to war, shouldn't it be good enough for how the military is trained? :P

Thank you! :hail

This is what I was trying to say-it's downright degrading, IMO. "Poor little giiiirls can't do pushups, so let's go easy on them." BULLSH%$. If they can't do the same as the men boot their asses out and move on.

The physical stuff IS important, it's part of tearing down individuals and building up cohesive units. It's at the very core of military life. Skimp on that, and you have the crap we see today.

I don't care if someone's IQ is 240 and they can build laser rockets with their feet, if they aren't worn out and broken down during bootcamp they will never have that bonding experience, the same pride...etc.

Yeah, I agree that women's physical standards should be the same as the men's, especially in a combat MOS. I talked to my friend whose mom was career military while she was growing up and she brought a different perspective to this... Her mom was a nurse in the Army, and was going through college while she was in to become an anesthesiologist. Between raising two kids, going to school full time, her age, and serving, she just couldn't keep up with the younger soldiers. She was in a non-combat field and went to college to move up in her field because the Army wanted her to, so it's not like she wasn't needed even if she could barely keep up with the PT requirements. She felt it wasn't fair to ask her to do the same amount of PT as a younger man in a combat MOS. She was in her mid-thirties and working in a hospital, not in the field.

The whole question had nothing to do with men vs. women though. But I do agree with some of the things you said

I didn't bring the man/woman thing into it I was responding to what many had written in this thread. The question was is the military weaker and automatically people were going off on the women in the military, or rather the inequality of the PT standards. I do not feel that it is women making the military weaker I really do feel it is politics.

Loretta I agree standards SHOULD be the same, we want equality and right now things are not equal (in the military). So basically yes we do agree and feel the same just express it differently.

Trina I again agree with everything you have said in this thread.

Yes, some people tend to use the military nowadays as a "way out". I cannot count how many people I've heard say:

I didn't sign up for this, I just signed up for the paycheck (which is admirable, signing up to do what you need to do for your family, but you have to take into account the whole package.

Or my favorite: I didn't sign up to fight, I signed up to get my education. (What is the military for?)


:yes

I have talked about this topic with 2 Navy Vets, a Army Vet and a Marine Vet at work. I agree with them when they said that some guys that join the Military now-a-days see it as a ride with pay. KWIM?

One stated that back in the time when he was sent to war they would have parades and huge welcome home parties for the Guys just returning. That today the guys going away to fight dont have much public backing on thier side due to the goverments lack and missdeeds. One stated that the goverment has advanced in the area or tatics, computer information and weapons but it lacks so much in the Soldiers FULL knowlege of what it means to be who he is and it lacks in them having backing from the ones he/she is fighting for.

Different Genders in the Military do not make it weak. Each gender can bring in different views and knowlege then the other. Not things that are taught but things that are common within each Gender. Things we as humans do normally know that we do them. The Military having both Men and Woman make it stronger in that area. The Military in its whole has grown from what it used to be... aka Gender Specific and Race also. I FULLY believe that in the aspect of them "going easy" on woman is BS. There are plenty of woman that can keep up with men.. hands down. If the ones that try and join the military cant keep up with the drills and such like the guys then they need to be told to leave. If they dont have the reflex's or the body skills to be able to handle rough areas then how can they expect them to be good at war? They cant.. point blank!

see my husband went to boot camp in 99 so not that long ago really but long enough ago that when we went back to great lakes with instructor orders he was shocked! he worked in legal for 3 years and was just absolutely amazed at how different things were what could and couldn't be done or said to students its about publicitiy and what is excepted in society now its not exceptable to beat them down anymore its not ok. the one thing he used to tell every student that walked into his office before they went to MAST was great lakes is not the real navy! the fleet is so different. their hands really are held in boot camp and schools now. i will say that even in the fleet though depending on which coast you are on the work ethic is completely different! we have been on both now and its night and day. i think that inmy experience just in the 8 years we have been in there have been a lot of changes in the way the military works, but there are also a lot of changes in the way we fight wars as well. not all the older guys know about these computer things so they have to relie on the younger generation to teach them, so i think that is when it became well if your nicer to them you will get more out of them. and i think overall that is what its about its about moral now not discpline these days. happy workers work harder and better than misreable ones. i am sure that a lot of DH's here have been forced to take command leadership classes and that is what was pushed at least a few years ago. and there are really some people that do cross the line no matter what. if your too nice your fraterizing, if your too hard your discriminating. its a fine line to walk.

Well, im sure in the last 10/20 it has for sure but when i read the question i immediatly thought back to WWII. How that generation just stepped up and how basically every young male enlisted into the military to fight in the war. My grandpa's stories always just amazed me, and i'm a WWII history buff so i've read/seen a lot about it...and i think the type of people and the "strength" of those individuals (maybe more mental/emotional rather than physical) was amazing! Obviously no one can speak for "everyone" then either, but for the most part the men and women volunteerd for duty then, with the country behind them working hard to support the war back h ere as well. I just think that generation was much different than ours!

We just had this convo the other night. I don't think that the military is taken seriously enough.. Infact I have seen many vets shake their heads at the way the guys carry themselves... but weaker? hmm, they have more technology but less heart