http://www.comcast.net/news/international/index.jsp?cat=INTERNATIONAL&fn=/2005/12/19/287292.html

Of course he thinks it's stupid.

Mexican Official Calls Fence Plan 'Stupid'
By WILL WEISSERT, Associated Press Writer
Mon Dec 19, 9:08 PM

MEXICO CITY - Mexico's foreign secretary Monday leveled his country's sharpest criticism yet at U.S. proposal for a fence along parts of its southern border, condemning it as "stupid" and "underhanded."

In a radio interview, Luis Ernesto Derbez said U.S. legislators who approved the bill were turning a blind eye to the contributions millions of migrants from Mexico and elsewhere make to America's economy and culture.

"It's a law that looks underhanded to everybody ... stupid," Derbez said.

On Friday, the U.S. House of Representatives voted 239-182 in favor of an immigration enforcement bill, which includes a proposal to build 700 miles of border fencing along parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Under the measure, soldiers and police would help stop people sneaking across, and employers would have to check the legal status of their workers.

Derbez said he was confident the bill would not make it past the U.S. Senate, which he said was not as easily swayed as the House.

Reacting Sunday to the bill's approval, Mexican President Vicente Fox said "this wall is shameful," and called the plan hypocritical for a country made up of immigrants.

Fox has for years called for an immigration agreement with Washington granting some form of legal status to Mexicans who sneak into U.S. territory in search of work.

President Bush proposed a new guest worker program with three-year work visas, but lawmakers refused to include the initiative in the immigration bill passed Friday.

Authorities estimate there are about 11 million undocumented migrants in the United States, about half of them Mexican.

Like it states, there are 11 million immigrants, of those at least 5.5 million come from all different areas. So maybe we should just create this huge wall all around the US and then nobody gets in. I hate how they are always attacking the mexican side of the border when it's not just mexicans coming over. I could see how they want to stop them from coming seeing how everybody is just dying to pick fruit or work 100 hours a week at $2 an hour. If anybody has ever seen the movie " A Day without a Mexican" it would prove my point.

We need to do something about illegal immigrants sneaking over the border. A large majority of illegal immigrants in this country comes from Mexico. Maybe it's "not just Mexican's coming over" as you stated, but whatever nationality they are, they're coming from Mexico nonetheless. Anything is better than nothing. Of course the Mexican president thinks it's stupid...that was kind've my point.

The wall is not just pointless, its a bigger waste of money for taxpayers. If taxpayers are so worried about immigrants making their taxes higher, I think they should take a little closer look at what the 'officials' are spending that tax money on, pointless crap like this. Its not migrants raising taxes, its lawmakers.

I think its a good idea..do we ever hear of Canadians trying to come to america?:hehe Our unemployment rate is outrageous as it is. I dont understand why people come here then do nothing but complain about how we dont support them?

ETA: its just not the people..its the drugs, guns and other crap that is being brought in by illegal means

Maybe it's "not just Mexican's coming over" as you stated, but whatever nationality they are, they're coming from Mexico nonetheless.

See I didn't know that all the immigrants (Chinese, Middle Eastern, German, etc) were coming from Mexico. I didn't know the Mexican border was the only unprotected border in the US. So I guess all these boats that keep getting caught full of Chinese (just an example) off the coast of New York are legal because they didn't come from Mexico.

I totally understand the fact that we do have to protect the borders because it's not just people getting smuggled in but I hate that whenever we mention immigrants they seem to pinpoint Mexicans only. No Canadians aren't trying to sneak over here becuase their country isn't considered third world and they aren't struggling to keep food on the table. People coming over here illegaly aren't here to waste time. They are here to work all the jobs that nobody else wants at ridiculous wages because as ridiculous as they are here, they are still getting paid 3 or 4 times more than what they would be getting paid in Mexico. Do you really think people sneak over here for the fun of it. And I'm talking about everyone not just Mexicans.

I didn't say that all the immigrants were coming from Mexico. What I said was:

A large majority of illegal immigrants in this country comes from Mexico. Maybe it's "not just Mexican's coming over" as you stated, but whatever nationality they are (SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO THE LARGE MAJORITY THAT ARE COMING FROM MEXICO) they're coming from Mexico nonetheless.

ETA: The use of "they" in this paragraph refers to the large majority of illegal immigrants that comes from Mexico.

There's no need to get all pissy about it. It's just my opinion. Next time you decide to point something directly at me, make sure you understand what has been said.

Calm down, I didn't get "all pissy". The, "they're coming from Mexico nonetheless," is what made it seem like you thought all immigrants came from Mexico. I wasn't going to disect the comment, I just read it and responded. I didn't think you would get soo offeneded.

My parents came from Mexico and they actually went through the whole process to become citizens and it was hard but they did it. Now it's really difficult to get it done legally, because they change the guidelines every week and a lot of people aren't going to go through the process when they can just pay one of the border patrol officers or somebody to cross them over. People need to realize that people don't just climb a fence to get here. There are lots of crooked people out there that get paid to cross people over or that are paid to ignore certain vehicles full of people. So putting up this wall is a quick fix that's going to cost lots of taxpayer money. You aren't going to get rid of all the crooked people or americans that make lots of money crossing people over. Heck, I've even heard of tunnels being dug now so a wall really isn't going to stop much. It may temporarily but not for too long.

Calm down, I didn't get "all pissy". The, "they're coming from Mexico nonetheless," is what made it seem like you thought all immigrants came from Mexico. I wasn't going to disect the comment, I just read it and responded. I didn't think you would get soo offeneded.

I wasn't under the impression that I was the pissy one. Maybe I misunderstood your tone. I simply felt the need to clarify myself, since you apparently hadn't read my entire post. If you had read the entire thread, you wouldn't have taken the "they're coming from Mexico nonetheless" the way you did. ;)

No offense taken.

I totally agree that something needs to be done.
If we don't build the wall mayb the entire bordering counties need to do what many here in TX are doing: Shooting them as they seem em! The communities are taking it upon themselves to protect this country along with the help of the TX rangers and local police authorities.
If I offeneded any one sorry but this is JMHO!

It's true that there are illegal immigrants entering the US from all sides. It's also true that as of today, a large majority come from Mexico. Something needs to be done, plain and simple. I believe the solution should begin where the problem is the most prevalent - the mexican border. We need to secure that border. From there we can develop and implement border security plans for our northern, western and eastern borders.

I did read the entire thread, but I guess that's why they call it a debate, nobody has to agree, we just get to listen to both sides. I really wasn't mad or anything trying to voice my opinion too.

Like I said, I do agree with needing to do something about it. Just because I'm Mexican doesn't mean I agree with illegal immigration, I just think that there are cases where it's not as bad as it seems.

For example, I'll admit, I have family that crossed over illegally. I see first hand why they did it. I have one cousin that works crazy hours as a construction worker and gets very little pay and what he does get paid goes straight to his family in Mexico. I feel bad for him because he gets taken advantage of here but at the same time he is illegal and beggars can't be choosers, you know what I mean. So of course he can't expect to be given all the benefits and perks if he's here illegally, he understands that and accepts it. He doesn't get a refund at the end of the year and he doesn't get any kind of assistance from the government, he is basically working for a company that looks the other way.

Now on the other hand, I have another cousin who got here illegally. She speaks english fluently and this helped her get a very good job. She lucked out. She is a LICENSED insurance agent earning really good money. That's all good and everything BUT, the fact that she doesn't report her earnings to the IRS and the fact that her husband is also illegal and does the same thing kinda pisses me off. They make enough money to were they would probably have to pay back at the end of the year yet because they don't report it, they don't get to pay anything back. She was able to get licensed which should have been impossible because her papers are fake and should have been a red flag during the screening process and she just bought a home. So she is illegal yet she "legally" owns property in the US. I don't get it. I guess I get upset because my parents sacrificed and did everything right to get the priviliege to do all the things that she is getting to do just because somebody hasn't checked their employees. She even holds a drivers license in the state of Colorado. These are things that we are supposed to be looking out for. She is by no means a threat to this country but the fact that she's able to get a licensed position with a huge insurance agency (not some mom and pop company), get a legal drivers license, and buy US property is a bit much. It makes me wonder just how many people that are a real threat live here because if she can lead a normal life as an illegal, so can anybody else.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm more against the people that attack people like my cousin the construction worker, because all they want to do is work to provide for their families. Taxes get taken out of his paycheck and there is no refund at the end of the year available to him. That's the people I stand up for. My other cousin, even though I love her, I think is taking advantage out of the US. It pisses me off to know that we have to work hard and report every cent we make yet she gets to sail by like nothing.
I hope, I kinda made a point somewhere in this book.

I see your point. I want to say though, that your female cousin isn't leading a normal life as an illegal, because she isn't paying taxes the way normal people do. I think it's wonderful to see immigrants come over here and succeed, get licensed, buy homes, etc. I think it's even more wonderful to see them do it legally.

It's not fair to legal Americans that people like your cousin come here and live for free without paying a dime of taxes, just like it's not fair for your male cousin to come here and be taken advantage of just because he didn't come here legally. Because he came here illegally he doesn't have a leg to stand on, and he will continue to be taken advantage of. It just makes me sad. He is an example of a lose/lose immigration policy.

Thank you for sharing those examples.

Also, we can build all the walls we want but, my two cousins didn't climb a wall, one paid an american to get him here and the other, her husband paid off the border patrol agent to get her here so, you can build walls but you're never going to get rid of the corrupt officials looking to make a quick buck. I know both my cousins paid over $1,000 to get here. The only reason it's more prevalent in the Mexican border is because all that's seperates us is a gate and it's either stay on one side and starve or climb the wall and try to make a better living.

I think the whole "shoot em as they see them" solution is a bit extreme. You would seriously kill a man that is probably trying to come over to try and feed his family. It's not like they are coming over and taking all the execs jobs, I think killing a family man because he wants to get a job picking tomatoes is pretty absurd.

I see your point. I want to say though, that your female cousin isn't leading a normal life as an illegal, because she isn't paying taxes the way normal people do. I think it's wonderful to see immigrants come over here and succeed, get licensed, buy homes, etc. I think it's even more wonderful to see them do it legally.



That's exactly what I think. We are supposed to be monitoring these types of things. She got through the licensing process without anybody questioning anything, she got a drivers license and nobody questioned it, and she BOUGHT a house and no red flags were raised. How is that possible :shock . There were at least 3 times where her fake social was run through the governments "monitoring systems" and nothing came back on her. This was all after 911 too. That really got me thinking, if she is pretty much set here as an illegal, she's got the home with the white picket fence and a very successfull job with a huge company, things that lots of AMERICANS dream about. That's the other side of this that I COMPLETELY disagree with.

Well I truely BELIEVE that IF he wants to make a better life for his family then he can do it the LEGAL way.
If they "family man" brought with him the drugs and guns etc that are going on here hell yeah I would shoot his ass and not think twice!

I think it's actually scary. There are clearly bugs in the system - it kind've makes me wonder if there's a solution to be had. Like trying to stop water through a sieve by only plugging one hole. We need to do something though - we need to start somewhere. It's most prevalent on our Mexican border, I say start there and plug one hole in the sieve at a time. Sooner or later the damn thing will hold water.

Well I truely BELIEVE that IF he wants to make a better life for his family then he can do it the LEGAL way.
If they "family man" brought with him the drugs and guns etc that are going on here hell yeah I would shoot his ass and not think twice!


I know not all clean cut people cross over. I know some do cross over with drugs, guns, etc. but really the majority are just looking to better themselves. I would hate to take someones life under the assumption that he MAY have something on him.

Yes there is a process that you can go through to cross over legally, but it takes LOTS of time and money which are two things most of them don't have. Sometimes you think you are almost there, then they change things up and all of a sudden you are back at square one. I think the whole "lets kill em first and sort out the details later" is wrong. Besides guns and drugs are being smuggled into Mexico from the US too and I haven't heard of any americans getting killed over there because they may have something illegal on them.

OK see I didn't know many of the things going on until we moved here
WE are not allowed any where near the border period my husband can be kicked out because that was given as a direct order.
It is way worse than people know or think. There is some really wicked shit going on here and at this point anybody on my property mexican, black, white Korean what ever I wouldn't hesitate about blowing them away cause of the things you see and hear here right now. I wouldn't take my chances.

they may not be getting killed cause they have something illegal but they are being killed!
There is a little war going on down here right now. They (mexicans) are killing the sheriffs and such on their side cause they want to cross so badly. Do it the legal way.
And there are ways to get it done
For example there is a guy in my home town from Brazil and he is here LEGALLY. He goes home often, his family is bad of financially but he isn't smuggling them into the country. He gives them money and such the right way. He is only here cause he wanted his kids to get a better education.

I'm sorry that you have to feel like that Breezy. There are things that we don't hear about as much and I can understand that you would want to protect your family.

I was pissed when I got here and was told that we aren't allowed any where near the border. I wanted to go shopping but once the situation was explained further I was glad I was warned

they may not be getting killed cause they have something illegal but they are being killed!
There is a little war going on down here right now. They (mexicans) are killing the sheriffs and such on their side cause they want to cross so badly. Do it the legal way.
And there are ways to get it done
For example there is a guy in my home town from Brazil and he is here LEGALLY. He goes home often, his family is bad of financially but he isn't smuggling them into the country. He gives them money and such the right way. He is only here cause he wanted his kids to get a better education.


Which is exactly why my parents went through the whole process and got here legally so that we wouldn't have to worry about our future and it does upset me to know that the sacrificed alot to be able to give that to us and I have a cousin that was able to pay someone off and has the same life and opportunities that my parents worked sooo hard to EARN. That really upsets me.

I agree...It's the law- obey the law and don't cross over illegaly.

Instead of the guy pointing his finger at the US, Mexico needs to change things about their country. THEN border crossing wouldn't be such an issue.

I agree...It's the law- obey the law and don't cross over illegaly.

Instead of the guy pointing his finger at the US, Mexico needs to change things about their country. THEN border crossing wouldn't be such an issue.

my thoughts exactly.

I think everyone is missing the big issue. Why do we think its ok to let people come over here and work 14 hour days for 2 or 3 dollars? You and I would never do it, but we think its perfectly fine for some poor people to do it because hey they're making more than they would in Mexico. It is not ok to exploit people no matter where they come from or how poor they are. The answer is not building a fence like many have pointed out (they will find a way past it), the answer is not to shoot them like dogs (they are still people even though they are not Americans). The answer is to stop the people who are exploiting them to work they way they do. As it stands right now, it is the illegal immigrants who are being punished, not the employers. Switch around and hurt the employers where it counts, their wallet, and I guarantee you this problem will go away.

Great comment ^! It sure doesn't help the situation when you have these companies willing to break the law and hire illegal immigrants just so that they won't have to pay as much. These companies can hire 20 immigrants and still not pay what they would pay say 10 legal workers. Legal workers are going to want benefits, overtime, and legal wages. Like I said, my cousin was brought over here illegally by his boss who paid for him to get here. This man does this all the time and most people look the other way.

I think the biggest shame in all of this is the human rights issues that get over looked. There's a trend in this country that if you aren't an American, then you aren't as "good" as we are. For some reason it seems like people seem to feel even strongly like that in regard to Mexicans. Even the word "Mexican" has a bad connotation in this country. Why doesn't anyone care about these people? Why do we talk about them like objects rather than people? Let's consider our constitution that our husbands and boyfriends are trying so hard to protect. If you've ever actually read the document, you would know that the rights and protections are intended for ALL humans, not just Americans. We are just lucky enough to live in a country that abides by that document. It is not the paper that gives the rights listed, but rather we are all born into them. Lets stop talking about Mexican people like they are some commodity to be used and exchanged, something lower than us great Americans.

In D.C. and the surrounding areas they get paid at least minimum wage.

In D.C. and the surrounding areas they get paid at least minimum wage.

they are making bank out here right now

I think everyone is missing the big issue. Why do we think its ok to let people come over here and work 14 hour days for 2 or 3 dollars? You and I would never do it, but we think its perfectly fine for some poor people to do it because hey they're making more than they would in Mexico. It is not ok to exploit people no matter where they come from or how poor they are. The answer is not building a fence like many have pointed out (they will find a way past it), the answer is not to shoot them like dogs (they are still people even though they are not Americans). The answer is to stop the people who are exploiting them to work they way they do. As it stands right now, it is the illegal immigrants who are being punished, not the employers. Switch around and hurt the employers where it counts, their wallet, and I guarantee you this problem will go away.
Why punish the employer? They are coming here ILLEGALLY for a "BETTER LIFE" they choose to work that! If they want a better life they can come here on an education Visa and get the education to get a JOB that will Better them!!:banghead

I have no problem with ANYBODy coming to this country but do it legally and if you are here to better yourself and your family then do so but don't live off of the gov etc for it.
Also there are plenty of Poverty strickened people in our own country who are "Americans" that would love to be paid minimum wage but we don't see them crawling across the border to get a "better life"

The employers need to be punished because they are exploiting people. They are taking advantage of these people's horrible circumstances and using to thier own advantage. Granted, getting 2 or 3 dollars is more than they would make in Mexico, but does that make it ethical? An overwhelming majortiy of illegal immigrants are NOT making minimun wage. If hiring illegal immigrants for cheap labor was not an option (not because we built a big enough fence, but because the penalty is just too steep) then employers would look locally for workers.

Also the employer needs to be punished because it is ILLEGAL to hite ILLEGAL immigrants. Its just not a law that is heavily enforced. I'm not calling for any new legislation here, just an enforcement of what is already there.

Believe me girls, it's not as easy as it seems to become legal. If it were that easy, immigration wouldn't be such a big problem. Like I stated, I agree with some and disagree with others. It used to be that I, being an American citizen, could legalize me immediate family to include grandparents. They axed that because once your grandparents got legalized then the could legalize their immediate family members so by legalizing one person, it would snowball into this huge mass of people being eligible for legalization. They couldn't do that because then we would have thousands of people here legally that would take jobs from the original citizens (I hope I'm making sense). That's just one example. Believe me, I've seen it first hand. The test they make you take has questions on it that even an american would have trouble with.

I know that some do live off the government, but that gets abused by americans just as much if not more. Let's face it, if somethings are offered for free, lots of people are going to try and take advantage.

Like I stated above, the problem is their country. That's my opinion.

If the President of Mexico is so concerned, why doesn't he look at his country and think about what he can do to help the people.

Of course there is problems in Mexico, but the problem of illegal immigrations starts HERE in the good ol US. If officials REALLY wanted to stop illegal immigration, I guarantee you they could. Why not put all those millions of dollars they are using of taxpayers money to build a ridiculous wall, and instead use it to hire more people and enfored employement laws in this country? Why not hire more people to go out to farms and work places to make sure that everyone they hire is legal? WHY you ask? Because its NOT beneficial to them. If illegals were to stop working at those poverty levels, the economy would go down the crapper. If anyone is to blame for this, its officials at the federal/national level. Americans are sheep, they belive what the 'president' tells them, they believe what senators tell them instead of actually getting to the bottom of things. OF COURSE they want you to think that a wall will solve all the problems, because that stupid wall is NOT a solution, its a big fat band-aid. Who do you think benefits from all those drugs and weapons being brought over? Our country is so corrupt and they have done such a great job of covering that up and have successfully put the blame on others. This whole issue about illegal immigration goes ALOT deeper than our government would EVER want anyone to know.

Americans are sheep, they belive what the 'president' tells them, they believe what senators tell them instead of actually getting to the bottom of things

That's a pretty broad assumption, don'tcha think? You just said, basically, that Americans are stupid. Is that what you really meant to say?


ETA: And, I just wanted to add that the original post that I posted includes:

Under the measure, soldiers and police would help stop people sneaking across, and employers would have to check the legal status of their workers.

and

President Bush proposed a new guest worker program with three-year work visas, but lawmakers refused to include the initiative in the immigration bill passed Friday.



I think this makes it clear that the President and the administration are well aware of what would happen if migrant workers were to cease and decist. The attempt is being made to bring some legality to their existence.

I am still in shock that you issued such a blanket statement, that Americans are sheep and don't have a mind of their own. How much more offensive can you really get? If people couldn't think for themselves, for example, the country wouldn't be in such uproar over the current administration. If all Americans blindly followed the President, no one would hate him as vehemently as so many do.

I gave two perfect personal examples of how people are here legally because Americans are allowing it. My cousin was brought over here by his boss. He probably works with 20-30 guys that were brought here illegally and unfortunately he does it for the exact reasons Shorty described. If her were to hire legal workers, they would all want benefits, overtime, decent money so for what he would pay 10 legal people, he's paying 20-30 illegals. Sadly that's just the way it works.

My other cousin like I described has gone through at least 3 different "screening processes" and she is just as illegal as the people they catch crossing the river, yet she's still working and going on like nothing.

Like Shorty said, a wall is just a huge bandaid. It may work for a while but people will get over. That gate they have now didn't exist until somebody thought it would keep people out and we all see it didn't work.

You are right, that was a blanket statement and I should have specified, perhaps not ALL but a large majority of Americans are. And I did not mean to say Americans are stupid, but a large part are just simply ignorant. 'What you don't know can't hurt you' and 'why think for ourselves when we elect these people to think for us' are things that come to mind. Many people are just happy in their little daily lives, and don't want to 'stir the pot'. They want it easy and don't want to have to think about how the system around them works all that much. I cannot take the statement away because unfortunately that is just how I feel. Americans to me in a large majority are simply followers, and tend to just go with the flow. Easily swayed and become outraged when a group of people disagree with the government and are quick to call them unAmerican because they see these people as a possibilty for their lives to be disrupted.
As for the bill saying employers are going to be required the legality of their workers. They are 'supposed' to be doing that now! Its already illegal for employers to hire someone that is not legal. This is basically just 'reminding' them that they are supposed to check. But nothing about actual enforcement. Its like telling a kid they can't have that cookie in the jar, but you leave them in the kitchen and don't come back to check and make sure they didn't take one. Then later you just 'remind' them they shouldn't take a cookie, but that is all. Eventually they will figure out that you are never going to check up on them or count the cookies in the jar and just keep taking cookies because they know they can and that they won't get punished, and if they caught, punishment won't be so bad and they'll still be able to do it again. Happens all the time, warehouses and factories get raided constantly and illegal workers are sent back to Mexico. The owner may be fined, however that does not deter him from turning around the next day and hiring a whole new batch or illegal workers, why? Because he knows the feds won't be back for another long while to raid him again and he'll be able to make up that fine he paid with the profits he'll make from paying these people poverty wages. The enforcement of these laws is just not there. And putting up a bigger wall and putting some extra security at the borders is not going to stop that.

I still think that the wall is a great start and my mind will not change. And my dh works closely with the border patrol so maybe that is part of my reasoning.
But I also agree with Rach
Maybe we should just stop allowing any one in this country period, then they would know that any who do get here are illegal and can ship them back!
Before I moved here and saw some of the things that I have I may have said maybe there is something else to do but right now SOMETHING has to be done period!