Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point?

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? How would that affect the prison pupulation?

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all?

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why?

This was inspired by another thread, hoping to make something productive of it because it got me thinking.

Where do you stand?

Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point? Depends on the crime, the severity, the motive, and the mentality of the criminal. Child molesters are sick and cannot be rehabilitated. Nor can serial killers and serial rapists. They're an obvious 'no.'

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? Depends on the crime obviously. Child molesters and serial killers should never be rehabilitated because they can't be.
How would that affect the prison population? Not too badly since some of them should be put to death depending on the frequency and severity of their crimes.

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all? Not sure where I stand on it being used in general, but I do think that some people don't deserve to have another breath on this planet.

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why? Yes, some crimes are petty, or in the grey area as far as motive. Man kills woman for no real reason, shouldn't live another day. Man kills woman because she was coming at him with a chainsaw, huge difference obviously.

Interesting.

How do you know that certain groups of people can't be rehabilitated? Can you link me to something I can read on the subject?

TIA.

I totally agree with the murder motives thing. :yes Murder and self defense are very different.

Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point? I believe that some groups can be, probably even the majority of people incarcerated.

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? I don't think any life should be wasted, so I think continued investment in rehab programs is the right thing to do. There is a higher failure right for some types of rehabilitation though (ie for those with antisocial personality disorder, pedophiles) so while I think research should continue in those areas, I also think that going through rehab shouldn't be an automatic ticket out of a prisoner's sentence. Just another step in preparing them to return to society, if possible.

How would that affect the prison population? If successful rehab programs are implemented and completed more widely, I think it would lead to fewer minor offenders behind bars and more space for unrehabilitated or mroe dangerous criminals.

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all? I do not believe in the death penalty. In this country we have the means to imprison people until the natural end of their lives if it is necessary for the safety of others...I believe taking away lives is not something humans should take into their hands unless absolutely necessary. It has been shown that the death penalty is applied unequally in this country.

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why? Yes. Motive has a lot to do with it. So does the mental health/ state of the offender. In those cases, I think offenders should be serve their sentences in wards that can attend to their mental disorders--not released and expected to take care of themselves, or imprisoned without mental health care as many are for lack of funds, faciilities, doctors etc.

I will be interested to see where this thread goes. Alot of different opinions on this.
I think there is a very high percentage of those who reoffend once out of prison but I have no idea who it is, what they did, or what have you.
I do believe that serial criminals (rapists, killers, molesters) should be locked up once they reoffend...it's an obvious pattern that rehabilitation was not successful for them. For life, not sure???

Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point? I believe that some groups can be, probably even the majority of people incarcerated.

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? I don't think any life should be wasted, so I think continued investment in rehab programs is the right thing to do. There is a higher failure right for some types of rehabilitation though (ie for those with antisocial personality disorder, pedophiles) so while I think research should continue in those areas, I also think that going through rehab shouldn't be an automatic ticket out of a prisoner's sentence. Just another step in preparing them to return to society, if possible.

How would that affect the prison population? If successful rehab programs are implemented and completed more widely, I think it would lead to fewer minor offenders behind bars and more space for unrehabilitated or mroe dangerous criminals.

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all? I do not believe in the death penalty. In this country we have the means to imprison people until the natural end of their lives if it is necessary for the safety of others...I believe taking away lives is not something humans should take into their hands unless absolutely necessary. It has been shown that the death penalty is applied unequally in this country.

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why? Yes. Motive has a lot to do with it. So does the mental health/ state of the offender. In those cases, I think offenders should be serve their sentences in wards that can attend to their mental disorders--not released and expected to take care of themselves, or imprisoned without mental health care as many are for lack of funds, faciilities, doctors etc.

I basically agree with everything you said. :yes

The only differing point is, I do believe in the death penalty but only in cases where the criminal truly wants to die, and knows in their heart they can't change. I am also for assisted suicide, though, so I'm probably in the minority there.

I will say that it may be possible in SOME cases to rehab them, but it's not cost effective and I'm not willing to pay that price personally for a failed attempt at rehabbing scum.

Excerpt from the journal 'Law and Human Behavior'
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t0q5j523440j76u7/
Abstract We address the high variability in sex offender recidivism rates by examining several of the critical methodological differences that underlie this variability. We used a dataset on 251 sex offenders (136 rapists and 115 child molesters) who were discharged over a 25-year period to examine changes in recidivism as a function of changes in dispositional definition of reoffense (e.g., arrest or conviction), changes in the domain of criminal offenses that are considered, and changes in the length of exposure time. The data indicate that: (a) both rapists and child molesters remain at risk to reoffend long after their discharge, in some cases 15–20 years after discharge; (b) there was a marked underestimation of recidivism when calculating a simple proportion (%) consisting of those who were known to have reoffended during the follow-up period, and (c) there was a marked underestimation of recidivism when the criterion was based on conviction or imprisonment. Forensic, clinical and policy implications of this high variability are discussed.
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9301_a.html

A 1992 study of 767 rapists and child molesters in Minnesota found those who completed psychiatric treatment were arrested more often for new sex crimes than those who had not been treated at all. A Canadian survey that tracked released child molesters for 20 years revealed a 43 percent recidivism rate regardless of the therapy. The difference between those simply incarcerated and those subjected to a full range of treatments appears statistically negligible. And the more violent and sadistic the offense, the more likely it is to be repeated.
http://www.mind-in-manchester.org.uk/campaigning/comscare/personality_order_madness_or_badness.php
Perhaps nothing is so damaging for psychiatric patients than the misconception of child molesters (paedophiles) as being mentally ill. While most of us feel that paedophiles must be 'sick' in the colloquial sense, they are almost never sick clinically.

Paedophiles are no more likely than others to experience being mentally ill: "Paedophilia is not a mental illness, but is regarded as a 'disorder of sexual preference', to quote the World Health Organisation formulation" (Innocence in Danger, 2001). Essentially, paedophilia is just a sexual orientation. People with this orientation have the same moral choices as anyone else i.e. to behave with decency and restraint or to force onto others their preferred type of sex (Szasz, 2002).

Paedophiles frequently claim that they themselves were abused, but as a leading forensic psychologist pointed out: "People do not become abusers and criminals because they were abused" (Samenow, 1998; p.39). According to NSPCC research huge numbers of people have experienced abuse or other victimisation in childhood (Clarke, 2000); however only a tiny percentage later choose to abuse other people.

While we applaud efforts to stop paedophiles re-offending (it seems that a cognitive-behavioural approach - psycho-babble for getting offenders to change their thinking and acting - does meet with some success; although the statstically-aware will note that 're-conviction' is not the same as 're-offending' -see Player, 1992) we deplore the portrayal of sexual deviancy as mental illness.

Significantly, the Wolvercote clinic -Britain's major 'treatment' centre for paedophiles - did not accept as patients people who were mentally ill: "Wolvercote does not accept men for intervention with current active mental illness..." (National Probation Service, p.2).

Victims of Crime Trust spokesman Norman Brennan has reportedly said: "There is no medical cure of paedophiles. It beggars belief why they are released in the first place" (Hull, 2004).

Paedophiles themselves have sometimes expressed scepticism about the feasibility of 'treatment'. As one convicted paedophile commented: "There has been a considerable amount of discussion recently about rehabilitating, even curing paedophiles. I do not believe this is possible. I am a paedophile" (Atherton, 2001).

This suggests that sometimes sex offenders are more realistic than 'experts' about changing their behaviour: jailing for life sex-sadist Paul Beart (who horribly tortured a woman to death) Mrs Justice Hallet said she was "...astonished Beart managed to fool experts into believing he was not a risk". Beart had previously been jailed for five years but released after three, having "passed a sex offenders' rehabilitation course and posed as a model prisoner" (Lakeman, 2001).



I have things to do or I would research more, but I have a homecoming to prepare for and lots of cleaning to do. ;) I didn't even get to search out info on serial killers, but I will later if I have a chance. :D

I basically agree with everything you said. :yes

The only differing point is, I do believe in the death penalty but only in cases where the criminal truly wants to die, and knows in their heart they can't change. I am also for assisted suicide, though, so I'm probably in the minority there.

I hear you. I do not agree with assisted suicide, but sometimes I go back and forth about the death penalty. I wonder sometimes if I would feel differently if my friend or family member had been the victim, if I would feel the criminal deserved to die. I don't know :dunno

I really wish that there were more resources allotted for rehabilitation and reintegration services. I worked at a school with many kids who had parents or family in jail or prison--some of them had been in and out several times over their lives. I remember wishing that there had been more resources for those families, to help them help themselves, to break the cycle. And, in some cases, to keep them in and not let them be eligible for parole again just because the jails were getting full :no

Thanks, Schaele! I will have a lot of reading to do when I log on later.

I see you have very strong opinions to go with your research :yes

I'll be back after a while. Thanks for joining in the debate, guys!

I DO believe that rehabilitation is possible BUT I do not believe that it is very likely in OUR justice and prison systems. Leiwan said basically how I feel about the subject.

I'm only going to touch on child molesters/rapists.

The way I see it is that the molester/rapist has to live with what they did, right? They serve 5-10 years or more. That's all good and fine... but that child has to live with those memories for the REST of their LIFE. No amount of therapy will ever fully erase those memories. Never. They creep up on you when you're not looking, when you're sleeping, when you're happy. A molester/rapist RUINS the life of a child. A child who is innocent and pure.

I have no sympathy for those who hurt a child. None. I have more sympathy for someone who murders an adult.

I agree with everything Shaele & Tawny said!

Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point? I believe that some groups can be, probably even the majority of people incarcerated.

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? I don't think any life should be wasted, so I think continued investment in rehab programs is the right thing to do. There is a higher failure right for some types of rehabilitation though (ie for those with antisocial personality disorder, pedophiles) so while I think research should continue in those areas, I also think that going through rehab shouldn't be an automatic ticket out of a prisoner's sentence. Just another step in preparing them to return to society, if possible.

How would that affect the prison population? If successful rehab programs are implemented and completed more widely, I think it would lead to fewer minor offenders behind bars and more space for unrehabilitated or mroe dangerous criminals.

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all? I do not believe in the death penalty. In this country we have the means to imprison people until the natural end of their lives if it is necessary for the safety of others...I believe taking away lives is not something humans should take into their hands unless absolutely necessary. It has been shown that the death penalty is applied unequally in this country.

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why? Yes. Motive has a lot to do with it. So does the mental health/ state of the offender. In those cases, I think offenders should be serve their sentences in wards that can attend to their mental disorders--not released and expected to take care of themselves, or imprisoned without mental health care as many are for lack of funds, faciilities, doctors etc.

I agree with this, with the exception that I do believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances... (I also believe there needs to be massive sentencing reform). In terms of rehab, I think some people who belong to particular groups are past it, and in terms of the "group" we should be very careful with the methods we use with them.

I come from a state where we have had quite a few habitual offenders get out, only to fail to integrate, and commit said crime again, only with worse results, to the point where they SAY themselves "I should not be out, if I hadn't of been out, it wouldn't have happened"

I know it's not the rule, but it still scares me. Some people can't and don't want to be rehabbed. That said, if there were decent and consistent rehab programs that dealt with the inherent environment of prison and its unique setting vs the real word etc... we would come a long way. I love watching the prison documentaries, and it stuns me how few places have such programs, (or any type of program) these days.

Short stints in solitary confinement are also OK in my book... but SHORT... not years. It's a wonder that the system cannot see that YEARS in solitary confinement can mess with a person very badly.

If someone should touch my child I dont care if they go through rehabilitation, they dont deserve to walk among free people. :reallymad

The amount of repeat offenders when it comes to sex crimes in general and specifically molesters is astronomical. Chemical castration maybe but even that is not full-proof. When you let a child molester out, free to roam the street, you are putting people in danger who don't know how to defend themselves. They have free reign over their victims because in so many cases, they don't understand they are being violated. It's an extremely sad situation and I personally would rather them be in a controlled environment like prison for the rest of their lives then out on the street where they can prey on another helpless victim.


Some criminals can be rehabilitated, I'm sure. There are just some that I personally feel just cannot be rehabilitated.

The thing I would be concerned with as far as chemical castration is that it could make them angry that they can't act on their feelings, or may decide to go one level up, and then the would-be victim is at even more risk of being hurt or killed.

I do NOT agree that being raped or molested ruins you. That perpetuates the victim mentality and is actually harmful to the person that has been molested or raped. I am not ruined, my sister who was molested as a child is not ruined.

I do NOT agree that being raped or molested ruins you. That perpetuates the victim mentality and is actually harmful to the person that has been molested or raped. I am not ruined, my sister who was molested as a child is not ruined.

I respectfully disagree, maybe ruin is too strong of a word but it definetly changed my life and put me on a bad track. No my life isnt over but its definetly a very painful thing even now.

Being raped can ruin a person, many women commit suicide or drink themselves into an early grave because of the shame of never telling anyone. Im glad that you and your sister were resilient but I dont think its safe to assume everyone will be its a very individual reaction for every person who goes through it.

No need to take what I said personally. I don't feel I'm ruined either... but I feel my childhood was. Maybe I should have said it differently.

Do you believe that criminals can be successfully reintroduced into society at some point? I believe that some groups can be, probably even the majority of people incarcerated.

Do you believe they should be held in prison until they die, or do you think the government should be investing in rehab programs? I don't think any life should be wasted, so I think continued investment in rehab programs is the right thing to do. There is a higher failure right for some types of rehabilitation though (ie for those with antisocial personality disorder, pedophiles) so while I think research should continue in those areas, I also think that going through rehab shouldn't be an automatic ticket out of a prisoner's sentence. Just another step in preparing them to return to society, if possible.

How would that affect the prison population? If successful rehab programs are implemented and completed more widely, I think it would lead to fewer minor offenders behind bars and more space for unrehabilitated or mroe dangerous criminals.

When does the death penalty come into play for you, if at all? I do not believe in the death penalty. In this country we have the means to imprison people until the natural end of their lives if it is necessary for the safety of others...I believe taking away lives is not something humans should take into their hands unless absolutely necessary. It has been shown that the death penalty is applied unequally in this country.

Does your opinion differ based on the crime? Why? Yes. Motive has a lot to do with it. So does the mental health/ state of the offender. In those cases, I think offenders should be serve their sentences in wards that can attend to their mental disorders--not released and expected to take care of themselves, or imprisoned without mental health care as many are for lack of funds, faciilities, doctors etc.

:thumbsup I agree with everything you said!

I respectfully disagree, maybe ruin is too strong of a word but it definetly changed my life and put me on a bad track. No my life isnt over but its definetly a very painful thing even now.

Being raped can ruin a person, many women commit suicide or drink themselves into an early grave because of the shame of never telling anyone. Im glad that you and your sister were resilient but I dont think its safe to assume everyone will be its a very individual reaction for every person who goes through it.

I agree! It did ruin my brother in some aspects! He was extremely intelligent & in GT classes growing up. Very outgoing & happy! Following all of this, his grades dropped, he dropped out of school, got heavily into drinking & drugs, etc. He was around 10 when this happened. By about 14, he was done! No amount of therapy with several doctors, etc helped! He is will be 27 next month & now back on track to some extent within the past few years. But his childhood & young adult life was ruined!

And it was same for the 2 cousins who were also molested by the same guy! They both have also gotten their lives on track within the past few years. They are almost 26 & 24. The 26 year old was in prison for a few years for drug-related charges among other things!

So as not to make this debate completely about child molesters and other sexual predators ;)

Can serial murderers be rehabbed?

From a CourtTV interview (http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/godwin.html) with Dr. Maurice Godwin (http://www.investigativepsych.com/aboutgodwinforensics.htm), a profiler (Really the entire interview was an interesting read!)
barbie2000s_here asks: Can serial killers be rehabilitated?
Dr. Godwin: For those who don't have my book, I suggest buy it for real serial murder facts and data.
Barbie: NO
Serial killers will do anything to achieve their next fix - a dead victim
This article states a theory by Helen Morrison that: (http://www.amazines.com/Serial_Killers_related.html)
serial killers are not a result of sexual abuse, inadequacy, or socioeconomic status, but are rather the result of retarded emotional development. The low level of emotional development, arguably, causes serial killers to have fractured or disparate personalities - that is they are missing components that are usually present. Low emotional development also explains some common traits among serial killers such as enjoying holding soft materials against their mouths (being the primary sensory organ of infants) which was observed in Richard Otto Macek, John Wayne Gacy and others - the material often being women's panties because of the material's softness

This one (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1820735.htm) makes the excellent point that we don't know how to deal with serial killers. If we knew how to deal with them/think like them, then we would be able to catch them efficiently, IMO.
Criminologist Professor Paul Wilson has questioned the decision to release Fraser, and believes he was beyond rehabilitation.

"There's no way that the system inside jail could rehabilitate anybody like that, a psychopath, virtually unable to be rehabilitated, we simply don't know how to deal with them," he said.

"I don't really think there's much that could have been done psychiatrically for a person like Fraser once he'd been released.

"I think there are questions about whether he should have been released."



The same John Douglas (http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030201.php), head of the FBI’s Investigative Support Unit
If I had one case to cite, one instance where a violent criminal at Maturino Resendiz's level was treated successfully and rehabilitated into a healthy human being, I might feel differently. But I know this: Serial killers cannot be rehabilitated. I'd stake my life on it.

So if he spends his life in a mental institution instead of being put to death, it will be because the jury feels that due to whatever debilitating, impairing mental disorder the defense will claim he has, they must act mercifully toward him and spare his life.

Serial killers don't deserve our mercy. For the murders they've committed, I believe they deserve to die. To prevent them from killing again, I believe they deserve to die. I don't apologize for those statements. I've looked into the eyes of so many serial killers and seen not just an utter lack of remorse but a frightening truth: If you let me out, I'll do it again.



John Douglas, a 25-year veteran of the FBI and model for the Scott Glenn character in film “The Silence of the Lambs,” spoke to more than 900 people in ISU’s Tilson Auditorium. (http://www.tribstar.com/news/local_story_037000358.html)

Douglas does not hold out much hope for rehabilitating serial killers, rapists or other violent offenders. “They have a sense of entitlement,” he said. They often show no remorse and tend to believe their victims had it coming. “You’re not going to change that kind of mindset.”



Ted Bundy, one of the most well-known, ruthless serial killers of our time said:
"Most serial killers are people who kill for the pure pleasure of killing and cannot be rehabilitated. Some of the killers themselves would even say so"

I would really love to see some actual data and research from the other side of the argument. :) I find all this very interesting, honestly. ;)

I do NOT agree that being raped or molested ruins you. That perpetuates the victim mentality and is actually harmful to the person that has been molested or raped. I am not ruined, my sister who was molested as a child is not ruined.

ITA. I'm strong, creative, and a hell of a wife and mother. Why the hell would I let those creeps hold me back? I am far from ruined.

Schaele-I bet a million you're speaking to me, and I have none right now. I only have what I feel, because a) I'm too lazy to research, and b) don't care enough. I just FEEL that everyone deserves to be treated humanely and that includes not writing them off as inhuman because they did something you don't agree with. Whether or not someone can be rehabilitated is moot in my eyes so long as everyone gets their fair shake in court and people realize that we are all just that, people.

I agree that the funds aren't currently there to rehab everyone, but if we rehabbed all the drug offenders first, that would free up space and reserves for the others down the road...and they should be evaluated and sent to treatment in order of most likely to succeed, IMO. The others can stay in prison just fine until it's their turn, if it comes...