Should procreating require a license? Should you have to take parenting classes before being allowed to have sex and make babies?

ETA: If "yes", please explain what kind of "criteria" you feel the license test should have.

Discuss.

Yes!! DB and I both thing they should do this sort of thing for people!

Yes. Of course the licensing process should make allowances for different schools of parenting.

IMO you should have to take a pill TO become pregnant not the other way around.

IMO you should have to take a pill TO become pregnant not the other way around.

haha....you need a pregnancy prescription...:rofl

Yes!! DB and I both thing they should do this sort of thing for people!

Yes. Of course the licensing process should make allowances for different schools of parenting.

Intelligence and the ability to pass a test have zilch to do with parenting ability. You can be the smartest, most charming person on the planet, and still end up a serial killer (i.e. Ted Bundy).

What kind of "criteria" do you suggest the license test have?

Um, no. The government does not exist to regulate and run every area of our lives. I'm not about to start electing people based on how they view parenting and then be told how it is best for me to parent. Sure, there are people who I wish wouldn't have children. But we don't live in a Utopian society and we never will.

I'm a proponent of national health insurance/coverage. I think that parenting classes should be part of all prenatal care.

My oldest was born at Great lakes. In order to deliver in that hospital, I was required to attend 6 weeks of classes, one night a week, that covered various things about labor, delivery, infant care, etc. those wo already had at least one child only had to take the 2-week refresher course heehee).

Now I don't think they would have refused to deliver the baby if I hadn't gone to the classes, but they were still required and there was still a place in the record stating whether or not the mother had attended classes. I thought it was great, I learned a TON of stuff in those 6 classes, wish it could have gone on for more.

So yeah, I think it should be required as a part of insurance coverage, which should be available to everyone at little or no cost.

Don't see how it is feasible in the real world. Not very "American" either, this being the land of the free and all that.
Are there baby making police? :lol

I totally agree that it SHOULD be required. However, I don't think it's feasible.

Don't see how it is feasible in the real world. Not very "American" either, this being the land of the free and all that.
Are there baby making police? :lol

Right?! We'd end up like China. "I'm sorry mam' we've just realized that you're no longer having a period, which means your pregnant. You didn't ask the state if you could get preggo and therefore we're going to have to escort you to the nearest abortion clinic. Since you broke the law we are now going to penalize you further and ban your from procreating for another 3 years."

*In case you think this scenario is far fetched then be thankful you live in a free country and you've never heard stories like this. My family lived in China for years and this was an oh-so-common occurrence.

No, because people will just learn to forge parenting ID's, much like they do with every other ID. :lol

Intelligence and the ability to pass a test have zilch to do with parenting ability. You can be the smartest, most charming person on the planet, and still end up a serial killer (i.e. Ted Bundy).

What kind of "criteria" do you suggest the license test have?

Oddly enough I didn't say jackshit about intelligence. I merely stated that there should be a test and it should allow for different styles of parenting. Example: you shouldn't fail because you prefer bottle feeding to breast feeding.

I didn't bother to list "criteria" is because it's not feasible. I mean for fuck's sake, we're a country that "believes" in seperation of church and state and it comes up in EVERY election. :whatever

You shouldn't have kids if you're not responsible and you can't be loving but there's no real way to test that. You can't test on emotions and feelings.

Are there people who shouldn't have children? YUP.

But if they weren't allowed to have kids I wouldn't be here and that would piss me off. Well maybe not because I wouldn't know the difference because I wouldn't exist. Then I'd be off floating around somewhere al pissed off about being non existant. My frustration would build and I would slowly go insane. I would then start haunting all of the perfect parents of th world and damn them for not having me and sentenceing me to an eternitiy of non existance.

Oddly enough, I didn't accuse you of saying it had anything to do with intelligence, I just quoted you along with the other "yes"er that had posted at that time. :giggle

Are there people who shouldn't have children? YUP.

But if they weren't allowed to have kids I wouldn't be here and that would piss me off. Well maybe not because I wouldn't know the difference because I wouldn't exist. Then I'd be off floating around somewhere al pissed off about being non existant. My frustration would build and I would slowly go insane. I would then start haunting all of the perfect parents of th world and damn them for not having me and sentenceing me to an eternitiy of non existance.

:hystericlaugh

While I think that it's a commendable idea (I mean, who doesn't know someone who definitely shouldn't be a parent?), it's not very feasible. Who would decide the criteria? What would the parenting skills be based upon?

I do agree with Eelo though, some sort of training/classes should be required with a new baby. We had to take some parenting classes before we took Lydia home, including watching that tragic video about Shaken Baby syndrome. Even basic classes would help out with simple yet vital parenting skills that some people lack.

I will say though, despite probably getting blasted for it, that I wish people who were proven child abusers had to get mandatory involuntary birth control. Not so far as sterilization but too often you hear of stories where people have had their children taken away by CPS to show up pregnant and abuse those babies. Heck, even though I'm glad my siblings and I are on the planet, I have frequently thought that my own dad was someone who had no business having children.

No.


But....if it is later proven that they are an UNFIT or NEGLECTFUL parent, then parenting classes should be warranted.

While I think that it's a commendable idea (I mean, who doesn't know someone who definitely shouldn't be a parent?), it's not very feasible. Who would decide the criteria? What would the parenting skills be based upon?

I do agree with Eelo though, some sort of training/classes should be required with a new baby. We had to take some parenting classes before we took Lydia home, including watching that tragic video about Shaken Baby syndrome. Even basic classes would help out with simple yet vital parenting skills that some people lack.

I will say though, despite probably getting blasted for it, that I wish people who were proven child abusers had to get mandatory involuntary birth control. Not so far as sterilization but too often you hear of stories where people have had their children taken away by CPS to show up pregnant and abuse those babies. Heck, even though I'm glad my siblings and I are on the planet, I have frequently thought that my own dad was someone who had no business having children.

I agree and hell I've been the one that says it. If your a child abuser you should be sterilized. Same with molesters.

No.


But....if it is later proven that they are an UNFIT or NEGLECTFUL parent, then parenting classes should be warranted.

But one could argue that b/c they didn't take the parenting classes they BECAME unfit and neglectful. They were not taught how to properly care for a child.

But one could argue that b/c they didn't take the parenting classes they BECAME unfit and neglectful. They were not taught how to properly care for a child.
People are born with the ability to nurture a child.

People are born with the ability to nurture a child.

:agree

I say no. Even if you want it to include different styles of parenting, it wouldn't include them all, I'm sure. Look at how the government sometimes treats people who home school/home birth, don't vax, etc. Less government, not more.

Call me crazy BUT I don't think I want my government all up in my womb like that. I mean heck they can't even figure out the budget and how to be diplomatic why would I want them in charge of my womb? They would just screw it all up.

Besides I don't want the government telling me we can't co-sleep, or home birth, or extend breast feeding, or home school, and a million OTHER non-mainstream parenting techniques that the government may see fit to forbid in their process of issuing out permission to procreate.

The first things to go would be home birthing, home schooling, and co-sleeping sorry I want the right to parent my child in the way I see fit not the way the government sees fit.

Um, no. The government does not exist to regulate and run every area of our lives. I'm not about to start electing people based on how they view parenting and then be told how it is best for me to parent. Sure, there are people who I wish wouldn't have children. But we don't live in a Utopian society and we never will.

ITA. Also, I don't think you can judge what kind of a parent a person will be based on a test. If classes were mandatory, what would be taught? I would hope it wouldn't be teaching one particular parenting method-people need to be given the freedom to decide how they will raise their child-but more like financial management, healthy eating for pregnant mothers and baby, what to expect, etc. It's a nice idea in theory, I guess, discounting the reasons mentioned above- after all, we have to have a license to drive, and to watch other people's children (well, in some settings). I just don't think it's feasible, and don't think that it's in a direction we would want to see our country going.

I say yes. Too many people who can't even take care of themselves have kids who then in turn end up loosing them to the state or killing them. It's pathetic to see people have kids left right like they are shopping for a new deodorant. Or what's even worse is people who can't even take care of a dog, give it away because it's too much responsibility and then turn around wanting a kid :rolleyes give me a effing break please.

People are born with the ability to nurture a child.

Yep. I was NOT ready to have a child, emotionally or mentally or what have you- but when she was born, I became ready, because I had to be. I think of myself as a pretty good parent, but you never would have guessed that before I got pregnant.

Um, no. The government does not exist to regulate and run every area of our lives. I'm not about to start electing people based on how they view parenting and then be told how it is best for me to parent. Sure, there are people who I wish wouldn't have children. But we don't live in a Utopian society and we never will.

:hail

I completely agree.

A license wouldn't work. But parenting classes probably would help a lot. It's a chain reaction right now. People who have bad parents don't know better when they have kids of their own so they are bad parents too (not all cases, of course). If there were classes, people would be able to learn what to do, what not to do and how to deal with any problems.

It's like training an animal. Some people only punish and don't reward. That causes problems for the animal and upsets the owner which only continues to punish. No good comes of that.

A license wouldn't work. But parenting classes probably would help a lot. It's a chain reaction right now. People who have bad parents don't know better when they have kids of their own so they are bad parents too (not all cases, of course). If there were classes, people would be able to learn what to do, what not to do and how to deal with any problems.

It's like training an animal. Some people only punish and don't reward. That causes problems for the animal and upsets the owner which only continues to punish. No good comes of that.

That is not 100% true, my Mom was beat by her Dad and verbally abused by her mother, they were both alcoholics. My mother is a recovered alcoholic and she NEVER beat us. She was hands down 100x's better even if she was not perfect when you compare her to her parents all without being taught in a class what was right. She made a goal of not abusing us and she reached it and went beyond it.

My husbands father was abused by his father because of his learning disabilities, he also never abused his sons. Now he may have a hard time showing deep emotion but he stopped the abuse cycle.

There are many people who are able to stop that abuse cycle, yes some fail but many succeed.

That is not 100% true, my Mom was beat by her Dad and verbally abused by her mother, they were both alcoholics. My mother is a recovered alcoholic and she NEVER beat us. She was hands down 100x's better even if she was not perfect when you compare her to her parents all without being taught in a class what was right. She made a goal of not abusing us and she reached it and went beyond it.

My husbands father was abused by his father because of his learning disabilities, he also never abused his sons. Now he may have a hard time showing deep emotion but he stopped the abuse cycle.

There are many people who are able to stop that abuse cycle, yes some fail but many succeed.

That's why I said not all cases.

Call me crazy BUT I don't think I want my government all up in my womb like that. I mean heck they can't even figure out the budget and how to be diplomatic why would I want them in charge of my womb? They would just screw it all up.

Besides I don't want the government telling me we can't co-sleep, or home birth, or extend breast feeding, or home school, and a million OTHER non-mainstream parenting techniques that the government may see fit to forbid in their process of issuing out permission to procreate.

The first things to go would be home birthing, home schooling, and co-sleeping sorry I want the right to parent my child in the way I see fit not the way the government sees fit.

I'm not thinking in this in the sense that someone would have to run a chit up to Big Uncle to ask if it's okay to hump the monkey without wearing a banana peel. :D

My thoughts are that since we're gong to provide adequate, suitable medical care for everyone (and we ARE, right?), parenting and child development classes should be included in the prenatal care. Heck, they could time the classes right along with the appointments.

Kinda like, you have a license to drive a car, but no governmental authority tells you which car to buy. Does that make sense?

I'm not thinking in this in the sense that someone would have to run a chit up to Big Uncle to ask if it's okay to hump the monkey without wearing a banana peel. :D

My thoughts are that since we're gong to provide adequate, suitable medical care for everyone (and we ARE, right?), parenting and child development classes should be included in the prenatal care. Heck, they could time the classes right along with the appointments.

I know but I was going with the OP which was a license being issued with licenses come a lot of rules and its just a slippery slope sort of thing.

I went to the pre-baby course on base (the all day one where you get nice free things LOL) both pregnancies but after the first baby I don't feel I really needed a parenting course. I would be annoyed if I had to go to classes with every pregnancy. Besides what teaching method are they going to use? Some parents like Ferber, some like Spock, others Sears etc. (there are several big parenting DRs out there) As a AP family I would be annoyed to listen to Ferber type parenting instructions. :dunno

People are born with the ability to nurture a child.

:rofl they are not! Some are sure. Some have NO clue. My point anyway was that if you only make those who have neglected in the past take classes then that argument can be used that they neglected before b/c they didn't have a clue what they were doing.

I agree with eelo in that there should be mandatory classes to teach basics when you ARE pregnant.

I don't think there should be an actual test... but people who are going to have a baby should be offered to learn basics. People shouldn't be taught HOW to parent (a la Green~Mammy's post) but they should be given some good solid information on what NO ONE should do (please don't shake the baby.) and what EVERYONE should do (please change the baby's diaper and feed them.)

I think the class should also be a useful resource for parents to access MORE information to learn about different types of parenting so that they can make informed decisions. Some won't use that, no big deal... but some may want to hear about different ways to parent... and could be pleasantly surprised at the idea of co sleeping or letting babies cry it out.

I don't think there should be a test though. You can't test someones ability to care for a child. It just can't be done. Some of the worst people can be completely melted and have a turn around when they have a child... and some of the greatest people can turn out to be horrible people to be allowed alone with children. Anyone can figure out the correct answers to a test.... and anyone can be too nervous to take the test well enough.

I know but I was going with the OP which was a license being issued with licenses come a lot of rules and its just a slippery slope sort of thing.

I went to the pre-baby course on base (the all day one where you get nice free things LOL) both pregnancies but after the first baby I don't feel I really needed a parenting course. I would be annoyed if I had to go to classes with every pregnancy. Besides what teaching method are they going to use? Some parents like Ferber, some like Spock, others Sears etc. (there are several big parenting DRs out there) As a AP family I would be annoyed to listen to Ferber type parenting instructions. :dunno

But remember, we're providing coverage (grin).... so the insured would be able to choose the types of classes they attend. I'm sure there could be a whole new niche market for parenting classes. Just like all the driving schools that you go to when you get a ticket, or to remove some of the points from your record, we could be seeing ads for "Melba's Mommy Menagerie: We believe in Socratic methods to cover the modern, pro-family concepts of co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, conscious discipline. We meet all insurance company standards for required prenatal care."

And for successive children, you'd only need RefTra, unless you wanted to attend the full monty. :D

But remember, we're providing coverage (grin).... so the insured would be able to choose the types of classes they attend. I'm sure there could be a whole new niche market for parenting classes. Just like all the driving schools that you go to when you get a ticket, or to remove some of the points from your record, we could be seeing ads for "Melba's Mommy Menagerie: We believe in Socratic methods to cover the modern, pro-family concepts of co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, conscious discipline. We meet all insurance company standards for required prenatal care."

And for successive children, you'd only need RefTra, unless you wanted to attend the full monty. :D

I am curious can some of the ladies who come from nations where they have national health tell me anything about parental classes and things like that? (although I still disagree about needing a license)

I agree and hell I've been the one that says it. If your a child abuser you should be sterilized. Same with molesters.
I disagree........
Not sterilized.
Neutralized.

But yes, I think every parent should be made to have some sort of parenting classes prior to birth. No one is born knowing how to raise a child. If we were we'd all be perfect parents and there would be no child abuse, child deaths, etc. If we were born knowing how to raise a child the world would not have the Ted Bundy's Jeffrey Dahlmer's and Charles Manson's of the world. We wouldn't have orphanges, or foster homes. We wouldn't have DCS or official offices to monitor bad parents.

We are not BORN knowing anything, other than how to breathe, eat and sleep... we are taught everything else.

Um, no. The government does not exist to regulate and run every area of our lives. I'm not about to start electing people based on how they view parenting and then be told how it is best for me to parent. Sure, there are people who I wish wouldn't have children. But we don't live in a Utopian society and we never will.

Exactly!

Not just NO but HELL NO. The last thing we need is a government who thinks it is their right to tell us whether we're allowed to have kids or not. It is our right in our FREE country to have children if we want to, despite how stupid, ignorant, clueless or whatever else we might be. Parenting is a process of learning and yeah I guess the kids can and do sometimes get the short end of the stick when a new parent is learning how to parent, but that's part of being a parent and part of growing as a person... every person goes through it and learns as they do. I don't think it is any other human being's right to tell me whether I can or can not have a child. A country that tried to take that freedom from me would not be a country I'd want to live in. What next? Telling us how many we can have? Telling us the foods we're required to feed them? Regulating how many hours we let them sleep each night and how many hours a day we're allowed to keep our TV's on when children are present?

No, no no. Horrible idea.

I disagree........
Not sterilized.
Neutralized.

But yes, I think every parent should be made to have some sort of parenting classes prior to birth. No one is born knowing how to raise a child. If we were we'd all be perfect parents and there would be no child abuse, child deaths, etc. If we were born knowing how to raise a child the world would not have the Ted Bundy's Jeffrey Dahlmer's and Charles Manson's of the world. We wouldn't have orphanges, or foster homes. We wouldn't have DCS or official offices to monitor bad parents.

We are not BORN knowing anything, other than how to breathe, eat and sleep... we are taught everything else.


:rofl we agree you just didn't know it..LOL I feel the same way.

And yep

Exactly!

Not just NO but HELL NO. The last thing we need is a government who thinks it is their right to tell us whether we're allowed to have kids or not. It is our right in our FREE country to have children if we want to, despite how stupid, ignorant, clueless or whatever else we might be. Parenting is a process of learning and yeah I guess the kids can and do sometimes get the short end of the stick when a new parent is learning how to parent, but that's part of being a parent and part of growing as a person... every person goes through it and learns as they do. I don't think it is any other human being's right to tell me whether I can or can not have a child. A country that tried to take that freedom from me would not be a country I'd want to live in. What next? Telling us how many we can have? Telling us the foods we're required to feed them? Regulating how many hours we let them sleep each night and how many hours a day we're allowed to keep our TV's on when children are present?

No, no no. Horrible idea.

I agree I have a mental illness would I have been able to get a license or would I have been sterilized so as not to possibly pass on my faulty genetics?

I agree I have a mental illness would I have been able to get a license or would I have been sterilized so as not to possibly pass on my faulty genetics?

Yeppers. WAY slippery slope. I don't even want to think about it :scared

Exactly!

Not just NO but HELL NO. The last thing we need is a government who thinks it is their right to tell us whether we're allowed to have kids or not. It is our right in our FREE country to have children if we want to, despite how stupid, ignorant, clueless or whatever else we might be. Parenting is a process of learning and yeah I guess the kids can and do sometimes get the short end of the stick when a new parent is learning how to parent, but that's part of being a parent and part of growing as a person... every person goes through it and learns as they do. I don't think it is any other human being's right to tell me whether I can or can not have a child. A country that tried to take that freedom from me would not be a country I'd want to live in. What next? Telling us how many we can have? Telling us the foods we're required to feed them? Regulating how many hours we let them sleep each night and how many hours a day we're allowed to keep our TV's on when children are present?

No, no no. Horrible idea.

yea I do agree with all of that. I just really wish sometimes people who are awful horrible parents who beat and hurt the child just never could have had a child in the first place...ya know..

I agree I have a mental illness would I have been able to get a license or would I have been sterilized so as not to possibly pass on my faulty genetics?

hey wait... that sounds STRANGELY familiar.... ;)

There are some serious circumstances that the 'parent' should very much be sterilized, be it genetics, or mental disease etc. There are situations where people should NOT be allowed to reproduce. Not b/c of what the offspring would come out as, but how the parents would rasie them to be.

If that makes sense.

Basic parenting classes would be sooooo helpful, especially to the really young mothers. Not a license, just classes on how to handle; fevers, diaper rash, immunizations, bottle & breast feeding, shaken baby syndrome, s/s of autism, reflux ect.....anger managment, proper car seat placement, child CPR.....all sorts of things that new mothers and fathers haven't a clue about.

I have seen so many young/new mothers in the ER with their babies for things that are pretty common sense but no one educated them so they don't know. (example; young mother w/2 week old baby...says baby is not taking in enough formula....we ask why she thinks this...she says she's tried to feed the baby the whole container of formula and the baby will only take in so much then starts throwing up....container = large can of powdered formula, enough for 3-4 days??) So she essentially was trying to feed the baby around the clock in order to "eat enough".

Um, no. The government does not exist to regulate and run every area of our lives. I'm not about to start electing people based on how they view parenting and then be told how it is best for me to parent. Sure, there are people who I wish wouldn't have children. But we don't live in a Utopian society and we never will.

:yes

There are some serious circumstances that the 'parent' should very much be sterilized, be it genetics, or mental disease etc. There are situations where people should NOT be allowed to reproduce. Not b/c of what the offspring would come out as, but how the parents would rasie them to be.

If that makes sense.

To me that is just a little to much like Nazi Germany, I will never support legislation which proposes large (or even small) scale sterilization plans.

Basic parenting classes would be sooooo helpful, especially to the really young mothers. Not a license, just classes on how to handle; fevers, diaper rash, immunizations, bottle & breast feeding, shaken baby syndrome, s/s of autism, reflux ect.....anger managment, proper car seat placement, child CPR.....all sorts of things that new mothers and fathers haven't a clue about.

I have seen so many young/new mothers in the ER with their babies for things that are pretty common sense but no one educated them so they don't know. (example; young mother w/2 week old baby...says baby is not taking in enough formula....we ask why she thinks this...she says she's tried to feed the baby the whole container of formula and the baby will only take in so much then starts throwing up....container = large can of powdered formula, enough for 3-4 days??) So she essentially was trying to feed the baby around the clock in order to "eat enough".

That's what I'm sayin'......

Make the classes easily accessible, at no cost. In this specific situation, it would have been a helluva lot cheaper to have that young mother in monthly/weekly parenting classes as part of her prenatal care, than to have her accessing medical care through the most expensive and inefficient route: the ER.

(not saying ERs are poorly run, but that for routine care it's not efficient or fiscally responsible)

While there are plenty of people out there that I'm sure shouldn't be parents, it's not feasible to create some sort of licensing system and not infringe on people's rights.

Basic parenting classes (what is a diaper, how to feed a child, etc) is a good idea along with the offering of some sort of fiscal reponsibility/budgeting classes. People that can't afford children, still have children and everyone in that family suffers.

To me that is just a little to much like Nazi Germany, I will never support legislation which proposes large (or even small) scale sterilization plans.

I'd prefer neutralize personally... but steralizing them is more publically acceptable. :D

I'd prefer neutralize personally... but steralizing them is more publically acceptable. :D

Well then let's compromise on the wording and go for public sterilization. Right there in the middle of downtown.

"Abuse THIS, asshole."

I would also like to point out (for those who are pro-license) that women get ALL up in arms over the government saying whether or not we can have an abortion. (Its MY body!) But now we're for the government DETERMINING whether or not we can have the baby we choose to keep?!

:thinkin I'm pretty sure that's inconsistent

Well then let's compromise on the wording and go for public sterilization. Right there in the middle of downtown.

"Abuse THIS, asshole."

You know what... I'd be first in line to yoink off the assholes dangly bits.

I'd prefer neutralize personally... but steralizing them is more publically acceptable. :D

I am confused because you had said There are some serious circumstances that the 'parent' should very much be sterilized, be it genetics, or mental disease etc. There are situations where people should NOT be allowed to reproduce. Not b/c of what the offspring would come out as, but how the parents would rasie them to be.

If that makes sense.

I have a mental disease so what sort of mental disease are you referring too? (I am trying not to get insulted, I apologize for not grasping exactly what you are saying/implying) So where is the line drawn?

I am confused because you had said

I have a mental disease so what sort of mental disease are you referring too? (I am trying not to get insulted, I apologize for not grasping exactly what you are saying/implying) So where is the line drawn?

I'll answer the question for me what I feel is when people should not have a child.
If you have a mental illness that makes it impossible for you to care for yourself and provide for yourself. (paranoid schizophrenic, EXTREME depression) I'm talking where you need to be institutionalized then nope I don't feel a baby is in your best interests or in the child's best interest.
Same with mom's who abuse drugs and alchohal and have NO intention on stopping for pregnancy.
I'm not saying forever I'm just saying those immediate circumstances are NOT conducive to pregnancy or a child.

all you's btw were general not to you GM. Sorry about that. I should have clarified.

I would also like to point out (for those who are pro-license) that women get ALL up in arms over the government saying whether or not we can have an abortion. (Its MY body!) But now we're for the government DETERMINING whether or not we can have the baby we choose to keep?!

:thinkin I'm pretty sure that's inconsistent

I totally agree with you.

OK now I will give my view on it, I have bipolar I have had moments were I most likely should of gone inpatient but my husband didn't know and i sure wasn't in any shape to be able to explain to him that I needed more help then just what his love could give me. However it is an illness you can recover (and yes you can relapse) I don't feel that automatic sterilization is fair or even right. I know many people would say that we should NEVER of had Jacob (I was DX after Darian was born) because of my illness. I will not let my illness control my life that way that makes me a victim not a survivor.

I listened to my mother and had myself sterilized after Jacob and there is not a day that goes by that I do not regret it because it was me losing faith in myself and my ability to control my bipolar. It was a way of letting myself be defeated by my own mental illness. I will always regret that choice BUT it was a CHOICE I would never want to force that on anyone because even as a choice it was painful to me. I can not imagine how painful it would have been had I been given NO choice on the matter. I would not have my sweet little Jacob.

So anyway I just wanted to give you guys a little view form the other side. Yes i can understand the feelings that people with severe mental illness should be sterilized BUT I don't agree. It sends the message that recovery is only temporary and that you will never be seen as a normal human.

I am confused because you had said

I have a mental disease so what sort of mental disease are you referring too? (I am trying not to get insulted, I apologize for not grasping exactly what you are saying/implying) So where is the line drawn?

I too have a mental condition, more than one actually, that I have struggled with since I was a tween. So I cast no stones at those that also have a struggle.

What I meant by mental disease is in line with Berk... paranoid, manic, institutionalizing diseases. Those that keep the person from being able to care for themselves or a child.

I too have a mental condition, more than one actually, that I have struggled with since I was a tween. So I cast no stones at those that also have a struggle.

What I meant by mental disease is in line with Berk... paranoid, manic, institutionalizing diseases. Those that keep the person from being able to care for themselves or a child.

I know and I explained further. I am not upset I mean the way you feel is not abnormal many people feel that way. I have the institutionalizing type of disease so I just was giving the opposite view.

I agree I have a mental illness would I have been able to get a license or would I have been sterilized so as not to possibly pass on my faulty genetics?

Yeah, exactly, such a slippery slope. I have depression, am I unfit to have children? There's a history of cancer in our families, does that mean we can't have a family either?

When I was a few years younger I think I would have believed a "parenting license" would be a good idea...when I was younger and knew everything. Now I have seen and known such a diversity of loving families that I know any criteria for a "license" would have been narrow minded and faulty...I've known drug addicts who came clean and got their children back and were some of the best parents I met, I've seen people who would traditionally be "too old" to raise children make a happy home, I've seen people with no money and a lot of love take in children and give them a home.

Families don't fit into neat little categories or standards.

I know and I explained further. I am not upset I mean the way you feel is not abnormal many people feel that way. I have the institutionalizing type of disease so I just was giving the opposite view.

It should be abnormal for people to feel that way. Lots of people are bipolar and that in no way should limit their ability to have children. I'm sorry that was taken away from you...whether it was your choice or not.

IMO you should have to take a pill TO become pregnant not the other way around.

That would be so easy for those that REALLY want kids & cant..

I am curious can some of the ladies who come from nations where they have national health tell me anything about parental classes and things like that? (although I still disagree about needing a license)

I obviously didn't got through my pregnancy in Germany but I don't remember hearing about (mandatory) parental classes. If you want, I can ask my mom and find out more details

There are some serious circumstances that the 'parent' should very much be sterilized, be it genetics, or mental disease etc. There are situations where people should NOT be allowed to reproduce. Not b/c of what the offspring would come out as, but how the parents would rasie them to be.

If that makes sense.

But where would you draw the line? Which mental illness/genetic problem would require 'sterilization'? VERY slippery slope. In the ideal case there will be two parents to care for the child whether both with whatever illness or just one illness.

To me that is just a little to much like Nazi Germany, I will never support legislation which proposes large (or even small) scale sterilization plans.
:yes

OK now I will give my view on it, I have bipolar I have had moments were I most likely should of gone inpatient but my husband didn't know and i sure wasn't in any shape to be able to explain to him that I needed more help then just what his love could give me. However it is an illness you can recover (and yes you can relapse) I don't feel that automatic sterilization is fair or even right. I know many people would say that we should NEVER of had Jacob (I was DX after Darian was born) because of my illness. I will not let my illness control my life that way that makes me a victim not a survivor.


:yes DH is bipolar (among other things.) Does that mean we as a couple shouldn't have any more children because he has been 'institutionalized' 3 times and there will always be the chance that it will happen again? Because he currently is unable to work because of his illness? And it would not just be temporary but if he were as suggested sterilized because of this it would take that chance away forever. Again, where to do we draw the line?


What I meant by mental disease is in line with Berk... paranoid, manic, institutionalizing diseases. Those that keep the person from being able to care for themselves or a child.

See previous answer

yes I fully 100% think that there should be required that you must obtain a liscense to reproduce. Again this all stems from my ems work. You should be required to attend classes on how to care for children at all ages, making sure the child has all its basic needs, how to handle them when your getting frustrated and not result to violence to get them to behave (when I say violence I mean punching them, kicking them or throwing them down a flight of concrete stairs,against a wall, ect) and I also like the experiment they are showing on we called the baby borrowers where they are supervised for 24 hours for 8 (I think) weeks and have to care for an infant, toddler, preschooler, preteen, teenager then the elderly. The family of the borrowed person is right there so if they need to step in they can. If they pass that then they should then they should get a liscnese to reproduce.

It may seem harsh but Im just going off of personal experince some of the things Ive seen that could have been prevented with proper parenting or whatever.

it will never happen though

No, there should not be mandatory classes, because everyone has a different take on what's the 'right' way to parent. I don't have to sit in a class telling me that I can't be a mother because I refuse to go with what the government says and inject my child with diseases, for instance. Or say the government says it's not healthy to sleep with your child, and decides to teach this in its parenting classes. I think these are things best left up to the parent to decide. The government, or whatever body would be deciding what gets taught, would not have the 'best' way to parent.

yes I fully 100% think that there should be required that you must obtain a liscense to reproduce. Again this all stems from my ems work. You should be required to attend classes on how to care for children at all ages, making sure the child has all its basic needs, how to handle them when your getting frustrated and not result to violence to get them to behave (when I say violence I mean punching them, kicking them or throwing them down a flight of concrete stairs,against a wall, ect) and I also like the experiment they are showing on we called the baby borrowers where they are supervised for 24 hours for 8 (I think) weeks and have to care for an infant, toddler, preschooler, preteen, teenager then the elderly. The family of the borrowed person is right there so if they need to step in they can. If they pass that then they should then they should get a liscnese to reproduce.

It may seem harsh but Im just going off of personal experince some of the things Ive seen that could have been prevented with proper parenting or whatever.

it will never happen though


Sometimes really bad things happen to really good people. An accident is an accident; the very best parent can't prevent something that is truly accidental, and all the training and licenses in the world isn't going to change that.

Sometimes really bad things happen to really good people. An accident is an accident; the very best parent can't prevent something that is truly accidental, and all the training and licenses in the world isn't going to change that.
yup i totally agree..
question is there a fee to be associated with this license?? what would the fee be?( sorry if that was posted already i didn't re read the thread)

yes I fully 100% think that there should be required that you must obtain a liscense to reproduce. Again this all stems from my ems work. You should be required to attend classes on how to care for children at all ages, making sure the child has all its basic needs, how to handle them when your getting frustrated and not result to violence to get them to behave (when I say violence I mean punching them, kicking them or throwing them down a flight of concrete stairs,against a wall, ect) and I also like the experiment they are showing on we called the baby borrowers where they are supervised for 24 hours for 8 (I think) weeks and have to care for an infant, toddler, preschooler, preteen, teenager then the elderly. The family of the borrowed person is right there so if they need to step in they can. If they pass that then they should then they should get a liscnese to reproduce.

It may seem harsh but Im just going off of personal experince some of the things Ive seen that could have been prevented with proper parenting or whatever.

it will never happen though

In your opinion, do you think it's harmful for children to witness physical abuse even if they are not abused themselves?

Sometimes really bad things happen to really good people. An accident is an accident; the very best parent can't prevent something that is truly accidental, and all the training and licenses in the world isn't going to change that.

the things Ive seen were in no way shape or form accidental its been confirmed by the mother or father that they threw their child against the wall so hard it knocked them out so they laid them down and pretended it never happened and neglected to tell ems so we could give the proper care for mechinisim of injury. Instead of us treating them as a trauma paitent with possiably a broken neck, we treat them as a sick child lay them on their side and thier injuries are now made worse because we gave the care that was proper for the situation that we were told then later come to find out it wasnt. anyway Im sorry eelo Im ranting I do see where your comming from there are some things that are pure accidents its the ones that arent that I would like to prevent

In your opinion, do you think it's harmful for children to witness physical abuse even if they are not abused themselves?

because I have no idea how to do multiquote ill answer this one here. Absotutley I believe it is harmful for a child to witness physical abuse even if they arent abused themselves. Its a scary thing to witness as an adult its an ever scarier thing to witness as a child. Not only can it cause problems psyocologically it can also teach the children that its okay to do that or be treated that way.

yes I fully 100% think that there should be required that you must obtain a liscense to reproduce. Again this all stems from my ems work. You should be required to attend classes on how to care for children at all ages, making sure the child has all its basic needs, how to handle them when your getting frustrated and not result to violence to get them to behave (when I say violence I mean punching them, kicking them or throwing them down a flight of concrete stairs,against a wall, ect) and I also like the experiment they are showing on we called the baby borrowers where they are supervised for 24 hours for 8 (I think) weeks and have to care for an infant, toddler, preschooler, preteen, teenager then the elderly. The family of the borrowed person is right there so if they need to step in they can. If they pass that then they should then they should get a liscnese to reproduce.

It may seem harsh but Im just going off of personal experince some of the things Ive seen that could have been prevented with proper parenting or whatever.

it will never happen though

I have many many classes in child development and my three year old still managed to fall and break both arms. I am not a bad mother-I have a three year old boy. On the other hand, I have heard of caregivers with 20 plus years experience way lay the hell out of a child. A class etc will not necessarily make you a good mother. I dont like the baby borrowers, I havent figured out how it is ethical when they stopped all experiments with kids long ago.

People are going to have sex and have it unprotected.

If that happens then what do you do with the parents who had unprotected sex and didn't take the parenting class? Abort the child, or immediately put it up for adoption?

because I have no idea how to do multiquote ill answer this one here. Absotutley I believe it is harmful for a child to witness physical abuse even if they arent abused themselves. Its a scary thing to witness as an adult its an ever scarier thing to witness as a child. Not only can it cause problems psyocologically it can also teach the children that its okay to do that or be treated that way.

That was a very interesting reply, thank you.

I have many many classes in child development and my three year old still managed to fall and break both arms. I am not a bad mother-I have a three year old boy. On the other hand, I have heard of caregivers with 20 plus years experience way lay the hell out of a child. A class etc will not necessarily make you a good mother. I dont like the baby borrowers, I havent figured out how it is ethical when they stopped all experiments with kids long ago.

just as I said to eelo accidents do happen and in no way are the parents at any fault to the situation. Your not a bad mom. Im talking about parents who blatenly abuse their children

I don't like that idea. I had shitty parents. They were druggies and my father is mentally ill. They divorced when I was 2. I would hate to have never been born just because of who my parents were or what they did. :no

My sister and brother who I can't imagine life without had an abuser for a father. Should they never have been born because of who he was? Horrible. Just horrible.

To me that is just a little to much like Nazi Germany, I will never support legislation which proposes large (or even small) scale sterilization plans.

For the record, so you (and Kris, and Heather, and Schaele, and leanne, and my own husband) know a little more about me..... I wouldn't support that either. In fact, I would (and have) actively campaign against it.

because I have no idea how to do multiquote ill answer this one here. Absotutley I believe it is harmful for a child to witness physical abuse even if they arent abused themselves. Its a scary thing to witness as an adult its an ever scarier thing to witness as a child. Not only can it cause problems psyocologically it can also teach the children that its okay to do that or be treated that way.

But you know what? I can name, in my life, many, MANY more children who were exposed to these traumatic situations and although it will always be a part of who they are, became better people for it, and the worldis better off because these people are in it.

In my life, in the people I know, there are a great many more who have grown from witnessing those things and who are positive influences in the lives of others (because of that? Heck, idk), than there are those who are cowering in the corener or worse yet, serial abusers.

the things Ive seen were in no way shape or form accidental its been confirmed by the mother or father that they threw their child against the wall so hard it knocked them out so they laid them down and pretended it never happened and neglected to tell ems so we could give the proper care for mechinisim of injury. Instead of us treating them as a trauma paitent with possiably a broken neck, we treat them as a sick child lay them on their side and thier injuries are now made worse because we gave the care that was proper for the situation that we were told then later come to find out it wasnt. anyway Im sorry eelo Im ranting I do see where your comming from there are some things that are pure accidents its the ones that arent that I would like to prevent

One of the things they should have taught you in your EMT classes is that you are witnessing a skewed reality.

The vast, vast majority of people aren't throwing their kids against the walls, but of course you don't get calls about that, there's no need for your services. The vast, vast majority of people are doing their very best to take care of their kids in the very best ways they know how, and really, that's all we can ask of people. That's what our parents did, and what their parents did before them, and I haven't see where our society has collapsed so evidently something's working. I have yet to see any empirical evidence that people with mental health issues (yeah, that vast spectrum that a whole lot of people fall under) are any less effective parents than those without mental health issues.

If the first indication you have of a person's "mental health issues" is when they threw their 2-year-old against the fireplace, how would a license or classes or training have prevented that? How would a blanket "mental health issues= bad parents" mentality have kept that baby from being hurt?

Do you have empirical evidence that connects "mental health issues" with abusers? I know a gazillion people with things that fall under the "mental health issues" umbrella, who are amazing parents..... just as I know people who have no mental health issues who are horrible to their children.

angelina jolie once said in an interview, something to the effect of she had to jump thru a million hoops in order to adopt her children, but no questions were asked before she left the hospital with her biological child. i agree with her.

Don't see how it is feasible in the real world. Not very "American" either, this being the land of the free and all that.
Are there baby making police? :lol
There should be. Have you seen some of the people who have been allowed to procreate.

I'd have to jump in the compromise boat on this one. The most comfortable I'd be with the government's control of my uterus and it's goings on is health coverage dependent upon classes. However, I'd like them to be my choice of classes from a variety of parenting techniques.

The last thing I want is to be forced to take 6 weeks of classes telling me I raised my first child wrong. Or in the case of new moms, be conflicted with ideas that aren't supported by either themselves or their families, cultures, etc.

I say yes. Too many people who can't even take care of themselves have kids who then in turn end up loosing them to the state or killing them. It's pathetic to see people have kids left right like they are shopping for a new deodorant. Or what's even worse is people who can't even take care of a dog, give it away because it's too much responsibility and then turn around wanting a kid :rolleyes give me a effing break please.

Do you really want the government telling you what you can and can't do with your children?

it's like Greenmammy said, one of the first things to go would be extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, home schooling, etc, and I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to let that happen "for the greater good". Even with licensing, you'll still have bad parents. Requiring licensing for drivers doesn't weed out all the bad drivers.

That's what I'm sayin'......

Make the classes easily accessible, at no cost. In this specific situation, it would have been a helluva lot cheaper to have that young mother in monthly/weekly parenting classes as part of her prenatal care, than to have her accessing medical care through the most expensive and inefficient route: the ER.

(not saying ERs are poorly run, but that for routine care it's not efficient or fiscally responsible)

Available? Ok. Required? No.

I'll answer the question for me what I feel is when people should not have a child.
If you have a mental illness that makes it impossible for you to care for yourself and provide for yourself. (paranoid schizophrenic, EXTREME depression) I'm talking where you need to be institutionalized then nope I don't feel a baby is in your best interests or in the child's best interest.
Same with mom's who abuse drugs and alchohal and have NO intention on stopping for pregnancy.
I'm not saying forever I'm just saying those immediate circumstances are NOT conducive to pregnancy or a child.

You do realize that paranoid schizophrenics aren't often diagnosed until they're in their mid twenties or older? By this, I shouldn't be here. My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic and she was a DAMN good mother. My father was excellent, too, in the TWO times that she had problems with her mental illness.

I'd be seriously interested in seeing how anyone proposes to get people to abide with a proposed licensing procedure. Regardless of whether it's parenting classes or going down and filling out an actual license, seriously, how would the government or anyone expect the average person to follow these requirements? We can't even get people to remember to renew their drivers license on time or to not drive drunk or to curb their damn dogs. Why would we expect anyone to abide by any parenting regulations? What would be the penalty if they got pregnant and had a child and were deemed unfit after the fact? Most states' Children Services Departments are overwhelmed as it is. Not to say there aren't a mess of people who could I beat with a stick for the terrible things they do to their children, but reproduction is a biological process that cannot and should not be controlled by government.

Also what sort of screening would these license have?
mental history of self and family
age (to old/young)
arrest record (what crimes are ok and will allow you to get the license what crimes are not)
what would cause your license to be revoked? suspended? If your license is revoked are you going to have sterilization forced upon you? Are any existing children taken away? If you are pregnant is your child aborted or placed in the system at birth?
Health history of self and family (does cancer run in your family? down syndrome, autism, dwarfism? do you have an STD? Have you ever had an STD? )

See in theory it might SOUND like a good idea BUT when you really exam it, it becomes not only a bad idea BUT a idea born straight from the pages of Ray Bradbury or George Orwell.

You do realize that paranoid schizophrenics aren't often diagnosed until they're in their mid twenties or older? By this, I shouldn't be here. My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic and she was a DAMN good mother. My father was excellent, too, in the TWO times that she had problems with her mental illness.

This is entire thread is speculative. It's not practical. And as I said I'm talking about people who should be institutionalized b/c they are a danger to THEMSELVES and OTHER's.
Again tho it's just speculation. It's not going to happen.

If they screened everyone for things that could potentially manifest into a mental illness or get projected onto their kids NO ONE would be able to have kids.

Also what sort of screening would these license have?
mental history of self and family
age (to old/young)
arrest record (what crimes are ok and will allow you to get the license what crimes are not)
what would cause your license to be revoked? suspended? If your license is revoked are you going to have sterilization forced upon you? Are any existing children taken away? If you are pregnant is your child aborted or placed in the system at birth?
Health history of self and family (does cancer run in your family? down syndrome, autism, dwarfism? do you have an STD? Have you ever had an STD? )

See in theory it might SOUND like a good idea BUT when you really exam it, it becomes not only a bad idea BUT a idea born straight from the pages of Ray Bradbury or George Orwell.

Which is exactly my point above. We can all talk about it till the cows come home. We can speculate on what we think we would do. I have no idea if I would ever actually vote something like that into office I really don't. I sure don't see me having to make that choice anytime soon.

This is entire thread is speculative. It's not practical. And as I said I'm talking about people who should be institutionalized b/c they are a danger to THEMSELVES and OTHER's.
Again tho it's just speculation. It's not going to happen.

Well with that scenario in mind, my father is a paranoid schizophrenic. Seriously. He IS a danger to himself AND others. He doesn't take his meds when he's not in prison, and he drinks and does drugs to 'self medicate' as the medical community coins it. So in this utopia I should never have been born because he's a danger to himself and others?

Oh and I'd like to know, are we all (well at least the people that got to be born because their parents were mainstream enough to not be sterilized) wearing grey uniforms and having our jobs assigned to us by the gov't based on test scores in this scenario as well? Or are we still free to do things like create our own lives/self fulfillments? As long as children aren't involved, anyhow.

Oh what do I care. I wasn't allowed to be born because my parents made mistakes. :duh


(disclaimer, standard unfortunately: I'm not ACTUALLY upset. I'm making a point.)

Well with that scenario in mind, my father is a paranoid schizophrenic. Seriously. He IS a danger to himself AND others. He doesn't take his meds when he's not in prison, and he drinks and does drugs to 'self medicate' as the medical community coins it. So in this utopia I should never have been born because he's a danger to himself and others?

Oh and I'd like to know, are we all (well at least the people that got to be born because their parents were mainstream enough to not be sterilized) wearing grey uniforms and having our jobs assigned to us by the gov't based on test scores in this scenario as well? Or are we still free to do things like create our own lives/self fulfillments? As long as children aren't involved, anyhow.

Oh what do I care. I wasn't allowed to be born because my parents made mistakes. :duh


(disclaimer, standard unfortunately: I'm not ACTUALLY upset. I'm making a point.)

IMO children arn't just assigned to one person. They are born but if for some reason they are lost or that person decides not to have them. I feel they are born to a different set of parents.
I never said it would be a utopia. I just simply don't think that everyone who CAN procreate should. I hold steadfast to that belief. I'm sorry but I do. Obviously that is hitting alot of nerves with people and I'm sorry for that but it's just how I think. And I said in my post about this that I feel in SITUATIONS where the person is unable then a child at that moment is not the best idea. hold on and I'll quote myself..
I'll answer the question for me what I feel is when people should not have a child.
If you have a mental illness that makes it impossible for you to care for yourself and provide for yourself. (paranoid schizophrenic, EXTREME depression) I'm talking where you need to be institutionalized then nope I don't feel a baby is in your best interests or in the child's best interest.
Same with mom's who abuse drugs and alchohal and have NO intention on stopping for pregnancy.
I'm not saying forever I'm just saying those immediate circumstances are NOT conducive to pregnancy or a child.
I think if you read the bolded I did not say NEVER have a child I said in those IMMEDIATE circumstances. I :dunno if people want to take that as me saying never ever have children OMGosh how dare then then that's their choice. But I hold steadfast to my belief that IN THOSE circumstances at that IMMEDIATE moment no.
At anyrate I know you're just making a point. I hope I answered your questions.
And anyway it's JMO it can be taken with a grain of salt. I'm never going to run this country. I would never want to. My opinions are not ever going to be something anyone would vote on so really it's all a moot point.

Schaele, just put that disclaimer in your siggy :rofl

Just don't take out my quote, or I'll end you like an exclamation point ends an exclamation! <--see what I did there?

But you know what? I can name, in my life, many, MANY more children who were exposed to these traumatic situations and although it will always be a part of who they are, became better people for it, and the worldis better off because these people are in it.

In my life, in the people I know, there are a great many more who have grown from witnessing those things and who are positive influences in the lives of others (because of that? Heck, idk), than there are those who are cowering in the corener or worse yet, serial abusers.


yep-im screwed because of my traumatic childhood:no I know I'm a good mom but the government questioned me. there are other children in more harm's way. the government doesn't know me though and i get they had to advocate for the kids but its still scary when your whole world and your career can be gone because someone "thinks" abuse is going on. I'm lucky but how many have been falsy accused and charged?that's the problem. the current system is broken. we need to fix what we have. there will always be violence in the world. can't shield the kids from all of it and im the most over protective mother you will probably meet(6year old in 5pt harness-they dont play outside without me etc). because of my trauma, i am deathly afraid something will happen to my kids.

yep-im screwed because of my traumatic childhood:no I know I'm a good mom but the government questioned me. there are other children in more harm's way. the government doesn't know me though and i get they had to advocate for the kids but its still scary when your whole world and your career can be gone because someone "thinks" abuse is going on. I'm lucky but how many have been falsy accused and charged?that's the problem. the current system is broken. we need to fix what we have. there will always be violence in the world. can't shield the kids from all of it and im the most over protective mother you will probably meet(6year old in 5pt harness-they dont play outside without me etc). because of my trauma, i am deathly afraid something will happen to my kids.

My Mom has in her first marriage the divorce and custody battle over my big sister was ugly, my Moms sister hates her so she lied along with my sisters father. My Mom lost custody. My sister had to live with her step mother who physically and verbally abused her and her father who sexually abused her. She lived with them for 4 years. My Mom got custody back after she married my little sisters father.

One of the things they should have taught you in your EMT classes is that you are witnessing a skewed reality.

The vast, vast majority of people aren't throwing their kids against the walls, but of course you don't get calls about that, there's no need for your services. The vast, vast majority of people are doing their very best to take care of their kids in the very best ways they know how, and really, that's all we can ask of people. That's what our parents did, and what their parents did before them, and I haven't see where our society has collapsed so evidently something's working. I have yet to see any empirical evidence that people with mental health issues (yeah, that vast spectrum that a whole lot of people fall under) are any less effective parents than those without mental health issues.

If the first indication you have of a person's "mental health issues" is when they threw their 2-year-old against the fireplace, how would a license or classes or training have prevented that? How would a blanket "mental health issues= bad parents" mentality have kept that baby from being hurt?

Do you have empirical evidence that connects "mental health issues" with abusers? I know a gazillion people with things that fall under the "mental health issues" umbrella, who are amazing parents..... just as I know people who have no mental health issues who are horrible to their children.



I never said anything about mental health issues affecting your parenting. Actually most of the abuse calls we have gotten are from parents who have no mental health issues at all. We have a had a few where the parent was abused themseleves and witnessed it when they were a child or they had some sort of mental illness and off medication but I dont think just because someone has mental health issues means that they are a bad parent. I acutally have ptsd from my work in ems and the first cardiac arrest I got that ended a child's life from abuse. I dont let it affect my relationship with my children if anything it makes me even more damn sure they are going to have the best childhood I can provide for them. As I said before accidents do happen its the intentional hurting and neglect of children I would want to prevent