Ok so DF and I got into reading the "Men at Work signs" thread over in In The News...http://militarysos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190156
So what should be done about the word mankind? It's in the bible, it's in the constitution.. It's everywhere.

:tu

Opinions!?

thats a good question!! i dont even know!!

I guess add "hu" in front of it so people won't get all upset. I personally don't really care at ALL. :dunno

Languages were created by sexist men.

errrr... Yeah... Thats all I have to say for now :dunno

You know what let's change it all!!

Lets, not use genders for anything! Every sign that says man... every sign that says woman must be gender neutral!

Why can't I go in the Man bathroom and I not good enough for the Man room?

Languages were created by sexist men.

errrr... Yeah... Thats all I have to say for now :dunno

haha you're so cute!
:hug

If it's a historical document or piece of literature I see no reason to change it. But current usage should be gender-neutral.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001149/114950mo.pdf

I found this document to be interesting (it's huge so I won't copy much). But it addresses some of the very subtle ways that language can be discriminatory, such as "John and Mary both have full-time jobs; he helps her with the housework." The underlying message is that the marys of the world are responsible for housework. How about "Research scientists often neglect their wives and children." That tells the reader that research scientists are men.

Here's one that many of us see frequently: "Transportation will be provided for soldiers and their wives." Um, what about the soldiers who are female? Are they not also soldiers, or are they not included in this group of invitees?

For the record, the language in the Constitution was specifically designed to be exclusionary toward women, despite Abigail Adams' best efforts and entreatments to her husband John to " don't forget the ladies."

I've only ever seen it as "Soldiers and their families"

haha you're so cute!
:hug

:feathers

:lovekiss

You know what let's change it all!!

Lets, not use genders for anything! Every sign that says man... every sign that says woman must be gender neutral!

Why can't I go in the Man bathroom and I not good enough for the Man room?

Good point... Wanna change all the bathrooms to a unisex room? Have one potty area for both men and women??
Why can't we go back to Adam and Eve's day and walk around naked. Can't have men clothes or women clothes. Must be unisex....

I've only ever seen it as "Soldiers and their families"

I've always heard spouse :yes

You know what let's change it all!!

Lets, not use genders for anything! Every sign that says man... every sign that says woman must be gender neutral!

Why can't I go in the Man bathroom and I not good enough for the Man room?

You don't want to go into the men's room... they're gross. I'm all for sexual segregation of restrooms. Although men's rooms need changing tables.

I've always heard spouse :yes

And that's good. It wasn't that long ago that it was "Soldiers and their wives."

I realize it's easy to be dismissive about this, or to come up with absurdities about unisex bathrooms. Fact is, people think in language, and signage stating "Men Working" means that only men are working.

Good point... Wanna change all the bathrooms to a unisex room? Have one potty area for both men and women??
Why can't we go back to Adam and Eve's day and walk around naked. Can't have men clothes or women clothes. Must be unisex....

Oooooh that is even more awesome!!! Lets fight for that!!! :lmao

Oooooh that is even more awesome!!! Lets fight for that!!! :lmao

Do you have a daughter?

You don't want to go into the men's room... they're gross. I'm all for sexual segregation of restrooms. Although men's rooms need changing tables.

True but if the ladies took over we would make those rooms better too...

If it's a historical document or piece of literature I see no reason to change it. But current usage should be gender-neutral.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001149/114950mo.pdf

I found this document to be interesting (it's huge so I won't copy much). But it addresses some of the very subtle ways that language can be discriminatory, such as "John and Mary both have full-time jobs; he helps her with the housework." The underlying message is that the marys of the world are responsible for housework. How about "Research scientists often neglect their wives and children." That tells the reader that research scientists are men.

Here's one that many of us see frequently: "Transportation will be provided for soldiers and their wives." Um, what about the soldiers who are female? Are they not also soldiers, or are they not included in this group of invitees?

For the record, the language in the Constitution was specifically designed to be exclusionary toward women, despite Abigail Adams' best efforts and entreatments to her husband John to " don't forget the ladies."

The part with "their wives"... there are now lesbians allowed to get married, so it could refer to lesbians. haha.

And I think if we're gonna go editting all the gender specific words, we'd have to be "fair" and edit everything with the word MAN.

The word "manmade" means human made.. would we change it too??

I dont care either way. I'm old school. I say leave everything.

I realize it's easy to be dismissive about this, or to come up with absurdities about unisex bathrooms. Fact is, people think in language, and signage stating "Men Working" means that only men are working.

That's only if the person reading the sign is a close-minded fool, IMO. I have never looked at a sign and assumed only Men are doing that job. No one I've asked today has either. It's the individual's perception, not necessarily the corporation or big bad evil sexist agenda that is subliminally taking digs at women.

True but if the ladies took over we would make those rooms better too...

...yeah... if you can teach me how to make the unisex bathrooms at MY house better, I will worship the ground you walk on... :D

You don't want to go into the men's room... they're gross. I'm all for sexual segregation of restrooms. Although men's rooms need changing tables.

:agree !!!!!!

Some places do have these "family" bathrooms now... Its for parents with small children and/or people who need assistance... I think those are very useful.

That's only if the person reading the sign is a close-minded fool, IMO. I have never looked at a sign and assumed only Men are doing that job. No one I've asked today has either. It's the individual's perception, not necessarily the corporation or big bad evil sexist agenda that is subliminally taking digs at women.

I agree. Even my 5 year old knows when they say "men" it refers to women too. But ya know, that may just be because she's going to a catholic daycare all the time. And they teach the fact that people are equal. I dunno..

The part with "their wives"... there are now lesbians allowed to get married, so it could refer to lesbians. haha.

And I think if we're gonna go editting all the gender specific words, we'd have to be "fair" and edit everything with the word MAN.

The word "manmade" means human made.. would we change it too??

I dont care either way. I'm old school. I say leave everything.

Ha ha. Find me a lesbian soldier who will be bringing her wife to a command function, and then your point might be relevant.

You seem to be having fun minimizing this. Yes, the language should be neutral. Most academic, legal and international documents being written today use gender-neutral language.

Have you ever been denied a promotion because of your gender? Have you ever been told that you couldn't do something based solely on your gender? Is this the atmosphere that you wish for your daughters, or our youth? If you say you've never experienced this, that's great- the work of those of us who went before you was effective.

Anon friend of mine : "The word "human" contains "man...""

That's only if the person reading the sign is a close-minded fool, IMO. I have never looked at a sign and assumed only Men are doing that job. No one I've asked today has either. It's the individual's perception, not necessarily the corporation or big bad evil sexist agenda that is subliminally taking digs at women.

I wish everyone saw it through your eyes and your sensibilities. Sadly, that's not how it works. There is still a glass ceiling, there is still a Boy's Room mentality in a lot of places.

Ha ha. Find me a lesbian soldier who will be bringing her wife to a command function, and then your point might be relevant.

You seem to be having fun minimizing this. Yes, the language should be neutral. Most academic, legal and international documents being written today use gender-neutral language.

Have you ever been denied a promotion because of your gender? Have you ever been told that you couldn't do something based solely on your gender? Is this the atmosphere that you wish for your daughters, or our youth? If you say you've never experienced this, that's great- the work of those of us who went before you was effective.


No actually I haven't because I've never really lived in an area with gender specific jobs.. Nor do I know anyone who's dealt with that.

My neighbors, as some of you may have read, are lesbians and she takes her wife to functions with her. She took her to the ball. They have an adopted daughter. Tricare covers her.

I agree. Even my 5 year old knows when they say "men" it refers to women too. But ya know, that may just be because she's going to a catholic daycare all the time. And they teach the fact that people are equal. I dunno..

If they're using the word "men" to mean men and women, they're not teaching that everyone is equal.

In the Bible, it's pretty consistent that whenever they used "men," it meant males only.

Ha ha. Find me a lesbian soldier who will be bringing her wife to a command function, and then your point might be relevant.

You seem to be having fun minimizing this. Yes, the language should be neutral. Most academic, legal and international documents being written today use gender-neutral language.

Have you ever been denied a promotion because of your gender? Have you ever been told that you couldn't do something based solely on your gender? Is this the atmosphere that you wish for your daughters, or our youth? If you say you've never experienced this, that's great- the work of those of us who went before you was effective.

:hail

I wish everyone saw it through your eyes and your sensibilities. Sadly, that's not how it works. There is still a glass ceiling, there is still a Boy's Room mentality in a lot of places.

As the old school men filter out, and the ones my age move up, that will change. I work with 34 men and 3 other women. We are 100% equal in that environment, no question about it. It's about talent and skill where I work, and we don't even have to work harder just to be respected equally. And that's in a place that has old school Northrop posters that have phrases like "the men of NG", "a few good Men", etc.


It takes time, but it IS happening. I personally feel that people making a huge deal out of something like a road sign makes a mockery of the good that is happening. It makes it a joke because really, it doesn't need to be such a big deal, kwim?

No actually I haven't because I've never really lived in an area with gender specific jobs.. Nor do I know anyone who's dealt with that.

My neighbors, as some of you may have read, are lesbians and she takes her wife to functions with her. She took her to the ball. They have an adopted daughter. Tricare covers her.

Wait, how is that possible?

If they're using the word "men" to mean men and women, they're not teaching that everyone is equal.

In the Bible, it's pretty consistent that whenever they used "men," it meant males only.

The Bible was written by a society that was patriarchal and extremely sexist. They really did mean men. Specially the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)

Jesus was very pro-women rights :giggle He was cool!

You know what let's change it all!!

Lets, not use genders for anything! Every sign that says man... every sign that says woman must be gender neutral!

Why can't I go in the Man bathroom and I not good enough for the Man room?

i've been in a men's room at various clubs because the women's line was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long and omg i got up the next morning (was a little :hosed at the club) and i had piss encrusted on my shoes and the bottom of my heels were tinged yellow yeah you don't want them sharing your space

If they're using the word "men" to mean men and women, they're not teaching that everyone is equal.

In the Bible, it's pretty consistent that whenever they used "men," it meant males only.

So ok quick question for ya bout the bible. Because I know some people look differently at this point as well.. Did GOD make the people write the books, or did they just write them from what they thought was right? Did GOD put those words on the paper in a form?

So ok quick question for ya bout the bible. Because I know some people look differently at this point as well.. Did GOD make the people write the books, or did they just write them from what they thought was right? Did GOD put those words on the paper in a form?

I doubt very much that God was sexist as that book... He did not put those words on paper...

As the old school men filter out, and the ones my age move up, that will change. I work with 34 men and 3 other women. We are 100% equal in that environment, no question about it. It's about talent and skill where I work, and we don't even have to work harder just to be respected equally. And that's in a place that has old school Northrop posters that have phrases like "the men of NG", "a few good Men", etc.


It takes time, but it IS happening. I personally feel that people making a huge deal out of something like a road sign makes a mockery of the good that is happening. It makes it a joke because really, it doesn't need to be such a big deal, kwim?

Remember, there's a 20+ year difference between you and me. :D Part of me sees these massive changes that I am really, really proud to have been involved in; but there's always a part that reminds me "Don't let it stop! Don't let it go back to the old ways!" And frankly, when we have throwbacks in the White House and in high-level administration, that's when I worry the most.

It's cool that you work in that kind of environment, and yes, a lot of it has to do with the dinosaurs dying out. But in the same vein, we have to let the old sexisms die out with them. We shouldn't still be making posters that glorify "The men of NG" and things like that.

So ok quick question for ya bout the bible. Because I know some people look differently at this point as well.. Did GOD make the people write the books, or did they just write them from what they thought was right? Did GOD put those words on the paper in a form?

The Bible, like History, was written by the winners.

i am going to skip the religion part of the equation because that is a whole other debate in my mind.

and i am going to move back to the original issue. we are progressing as a society and what seem like little things to most are not if you look at the bigger picture.

yes some companies have progressed and are allowing women to gain rank but it is still a man's world.

the womens movement made great strides since it began and one day i am hoping that it will not have to fight to get gender equality.

women still get paid less statistically for the same jobs men get paid more for, women are still considered the weaker sex.

( men whine over a snotty nose, women give birth some without pain medication and we are somehow weaker ok whatever)

anyway, i agree with eelo on one specific point. if you do not see the gender inequality then that is great because it means some of the stuff that women before you have fought for has paid off. but we need to remember that until everything is truly equal we may have won many battles for women but the war is still be fought.


i prefer unisex and family bathrooms over male and female ones, i prefer dressing rooms that service both genders, i prefer many things that are equal in gender specifics. i think you should get a job and be paid based on what your skills and abilities are and not on what is between your legs, etc......

Remember, there's a 20+ year difference between you and me. :D Part of me sees these massive changes that I am really, really proud to have been involved in; but there's always a part that reminds me "Don't let it stop! Don't let it go back to the old ways!" And frankly, when we have throwbacks in the White House and in high-level administration, that's when I worry the most.

It's cool that you work in that kind of environment, and yes, a lot of it has to do with the dinosaurs dying out. But in the same vein, we have to let the old sexisms die out with them. We shouldn't still be making posters that glorify "The men of NG" and things like that.

I know this wasn't directed at me.. but when did age difference have a point in any debate? Don't ya think that, just as sexism, that's a form of profiling?

I know a few older people I'd not trust or believe if my life depended on it. Hell, the reason I even HAVE a 5 year old already is because of an OLDER girl and guy decided to have a kid and NOT be responsible. There's plenty of OLDER people who STILL continue to be stupid idiots.

I know this wasn't directed at me.. but when did age difference have a point in any debate? Don't ya think that, just as sexism, that's a form of profiling?

I know a few older people I'd not trust or believe if my life depended on it. Hell, the reason I even HAVE a 5 year old already is because of an OLDER girl and guy decided to have a kid and NOT be responsible. There's plenty of OLDER people who STILL continue to be stupid idiots.

what she's saying is her views on sexism come from the time when the 'boys club' was alive and well and equality wasn't as evident as it is right now

I know this wasn't directed at me.. but when did age difference have a point in any debate? Don't ya think that, just as sexism, that's a form of profiling?

I know a few older people I'd not trust or believe if my life depended on it. Hell, the reason I even HAVE a 5 year old already is because of an OLDER girl and guy decided to have a kid and NOT be responsible. There's plenty of OLDER people who STILL continue to be stupid idiots.

In this debate it is very relevant. Opportunities for women in the military and in the military-industrial complex today are considerably greater than they were 30 years ago when I first joined the military. If you go back 40-50 years, opportunities for Filipinos and African-Americans were different in 1975 than they were in 1965 or 1955. It's evolution. Opportunities for women are significantly different from what they were 20-30 years ago. I was merely pointing out the changes.

It's not profiling; I'm not saying anything negative or positive, I'm only identifying a different perspective.

I'm all for fighting for the opportunities of women and whatnot. But the whole changing of words thing.. I think it's petty and that there's more important things in the world to worry about.
Heaven forbid a sign says man and not people. Come on.

In this debate it is very relevant. Opportunities for women in the military and in the military-industrial complex today are considerably greater than they were 30 years ago when I first joined the military. If you go back 40-50 years, opportunities for Filipinos and African-Americans were different in 1975 than they were in 1965 or 1955. It's evolution. Opportunities for women are significantly different from what they were 20-30 years ago. I was merely pointing out the changes.

It's not profiling; I'm not saying anything negative or positive, I'm only identifying a different perspective.

Definitely agree.


40 years ago my mom had a chest where she put new clothes in for when she got married as if that were the only thing she would do with her life... All girls had this chest from 15...

Don't know how offended I'd be if she had offered me my very own "marriage chest" :nutts

Definitely agree.


40 years ago my mom had a chest where she put new clothes in for when she got married as if that were the only thing she would do with her life... All girls had this chest from 15...

Don't know how offended I'd be if she had offered me my very own "marriage chest" :nutts

OMG, we used to call them "Hope Chests," as if that was the be-all, end-all. My sisters had a classmate who got one for her 8th grade graduation, complete with a first set of sheets.

OMG, we used to call them "Hope Chests," as if that was the be-all, end-all. My sisters had a classmate who got one for her 8th grade graduation, complete with a first set of sheets.

LOLLLLLL

Goodness... I'm glad that by now those things are almost unimaginable :)

OMG, we used to call them "Hope Chests," as if that was the be-all, end-all. My sisters had a classmate who got one for her 8th grade graduation, complete with a first set of sheets.

my grandma has one that she uses as storage lol

Lets face it, since 1776 the women's movement has been going on. (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html) The flappers and their statement, 1960's and theirs. There has been movement for over 150 years not just the last 50. I'm thankful I have the option to stay at home but now, you get the critizen of people saying you are being "male dominated." I don't see how the sexisim has changed. Just in our own area.

It is great that there is more equality; but sometimes, people go overboard. You must do it now. Like the sign post, were they new signs? Where was it at. Everywhere we have been we have seen "workers ahead." As the signs are being worn out, just replace them. I think of it as a waste, not only of money but of our natural resources, to replace them now.

If the world was perfect, equality would be great. But, do you still want a man to open the door for you? What about when they let the "lady" go first? We want it both ways and you can't. Some men are taught to be a "gentlemen" and that is a dying breed.

Lets face it, since 1848 the women's movement has been going on. The flappers and their statement, 1960's and theirs. There has been movement for over 150 years not just the last 50. I'm thankful I have the option to stay at home but now, you get the critizen of people saying you are being "male dominated." I don't see how the sexisim has changed. Just in our own area.

It is great that there is more equality; but sometimes, people go overboard. You must do it now. Like the sign post, were they new signs? Where was it at. Everywhere we have been we have seen "workers ahead." As the signs are being worn out, just replace them. I think of it as a waste, not only of money but of our natural resources, to replace them now.

If the world was perfect, equality would be great. But, do you still want a man to open the door for you? What about when they let the "lady" go first? We want it both ways and you can't. Some men are taught to be a "gentlemen" and that is a dying breed.

:hail

:hail

LOL!

My DH said, "If momma ain't happy, no MEN are happy either!!!"

Lets face it, since 1776 the women's movement has been going on. (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html) The flappers and their statement, 1960's and theirs. There has been movement for over 150 years not just the last 50. I'm thankful I have the option to stay at home but now, you get the critizen of people saying you are being "male dominated." I don't see how the sexisim has changed. Just in our own area.

It is great that there is more equality; but sometimes, people go overboard. You must do it now. Like the sign post, were they new signs? Where was it at. Everywhere we have been we have seen "workers ahead." As the signs are being worn out, just replace them. I think of it as a waste, not only of money but of our natural resources, to replace them now.

If the world was perfect, equality would be great. But, do you still want a man to open the door for you? What about when they let the "lady" go first? We want it both ways and you can't. Some men are taught to be a "gentlemen" and that is a dying breed.

Well, if I have my arms full of diaper bag, toddler and stroller, then I think it's very nice of a man to hold the door for me. Heck, it's very nice of anyone to hold the door for me. Similarly, if I'm the one with the free arms, I'll open the door and hold it for them.

Being "taught to be a gentleman" is great as long as that "gentleman's" mentality doesn't include telling my daughters they can't pursue a certain degree or career because of their gender, or that boys shouldn't do "women's work."

Well, if I have my arms full of diaper bag, toddler and stroller, then I think it's very nice of a man to hold the door for me. Heck, it's very nice of anyone to hold the door for me. Similarly, if I'm the one with the free arms, I'll open the door and hold it for them.

Being "taught to be a gentleman" is great as long as that "gentleman's" mentality doesn't include telling my daughters they can't pursue a certain degree or career because of their gender, or that boys shouldn't do "women's work."

I don't even think that is thought of now a days. We are stressed in schools, home, churches, ect. about equality, that things change. You can't expect the world to stop on a dime just because of one issues. If something is even found CLOSE to being sexist, (whether it is or not) is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

When my mom was in HS in the 50's there was the movement of allowing women to do other things beside being a teacher (which in the 1850's was only a male domintate area) or a secretary. Those were you choices. By the 70's more was allowed.

As the world progresses and changes, people (men AND women) need to get off their high horse and change with it. As long as equality goes BOTH ways. Stay at home Dads are one of them.

:)

I don't even think that is thought of now a days. We are stressed in schools, home, churches, ect. about equality, that things change. You can't expect the world to stop on a dime just because of one issues. If something is even found CLOSE to being sexist, (whether it is or not) is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

When my mom was in HS in the 50's there was the movement of allowing women to do other things beside being a teacher (which in the 1850's was only a male domintate area) or a secretary. Those were you choices. By the 70's more was allowed.

As the world progresses and changes, people (men AND women) need to get off their high horse and change with it. As long as equality goes BOTH ways. Stay at home Dads are one of them.

:)

Personally, I prefer the SAHP acronym.

I'm not sure where the idea came up that anyone expected stop-on-a-dime change? Certainly not in this thread or the related one.

ETA: I have to disagree with you on the general thoughts today. My daughter stopped playing with two boys from down the street, partly because of their stance on how girls should play and how boys should play, and that certain career choices are limited (policeMAN, fireMAN, etc), because that's what they were taught in their fundamentalist private school. The teachings are out there, and they're not so far off mainstream as I'd like to think they are.

OMG, we used to call them "Hope Chests," as if that was the be-all, end-all. My sisters had a classmate who got one for her 8th grade graduation, complete with a first set of sheets.

My grandma tried to start one for me... but it was never about for when I was married... it was for when I moved out and was on my own for the first time.

It never DID catch on though... my brother uses it as a toy box, just as I did before him haha

Lets face it, since 1776 the women's movement has been going on. (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html) The flappers and their statement, 1960's and theirs. There has been movement for over 150 years not just the last 50. I'm thankful I have the option to stay at home but now, you get the critizen of people saying you are being "male dominated." I don't see how the sexisim has changed. Just in our own area.

It is great that there is more equality; but sometimes, people go overboard. You must do it now. Like the sign post, were they new signs? Where was it at. Everywhere we have been we have seen "workers ahead." As the signs are being worn out, just replace them. I think of it as a waste, not only of money but of our natural resources, to replace them now.

If the world was perfect, equality would be great. But, do you still want a man to open the door for you? What about when they let the "lady" go first? We want it both ways and you can't. Some men are taught to be a "gentlemen" and that is a dying breed.

I always open the door for my husband. I also walk faster and get to it FIRST. If he were to pick up the step and get to it to open it for me, i'd be just as happy.

Just because I am a woman doesn't mean I expect men to hold the door for me. I expect whomever gets to the door FIRST to hold the door.

I DO want equality. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second. I want men to be seen as Humans first, and men second. We are ALL essentially the same. Yeah, there are differences between the sexes (a lot of it TAUGHT) but there are differences WITHIN the sexes as well.

I expect the most capable and the most willing to do what needs to be done. If that means a woman has to build a bridge while a man is a nurse, perfect. If that means that a Man is a police officer while a woman is a stay at home mom, just as perfect.

Personally, I prefer the SAHP acronym.

I'm not sure where the idea came up that anyone expected stop-on-a-dime change? Certainly not in this thread or the related one.

ETA: I have to disagree with you on the general thoughts today. My daughter stopped playing with two boys from down the street, partly because of their stance on how girls should play and how boys should play, and that certain career choices are limited (policeMAN, fireMAN, etc), because that's what they were taught in their fundamentalist private school. The teachings are out there, and they're not so far off mainstream as I'd like to think they are.

It is ok to disagree. This world will NEVER agree on anything. I didn't know that racist people still exsisted. And I was attacked in the south (verbally) by a African America. I did NOTHING wrong but wanted to order at Perkins. You will always have the one sided people (KKK, Nazi, general pigs).

It is ok to disagree. This world will NEVER agree on anything. I didn't know that racist people still exsisted. And I was attacked in the south (verbally) by a African America. I did NOTHING wrong but wanted to order at Perkins. You will always have the one sided people (KKK, Nazi, general pigs).

Yep. We just have to choose what we're going to believe, and how we're going to act.

Here's an interesting thoguht to throw out there, that sexism runs both ways. Yes, statistically women do get paid less than men, although that gap is closing every year. There's a lot of little things that taken together can point to sexism in favor of men. But let's not forget that guys get screwed too, based on the old world stereotypes of men. Simple things like not having changing tables in men's room or being made to be the one to check out the strange noise you hear in the garage in the middle of the night. Or assuming a male hairdresser is gay. But what about some of the biggies, like not getting paid leave after the birth of a child. I realize this is starting to change as well, but generally it seems like guys have to move heaven and earth to get time off after a birth, let alone paid childcare time. And forget about the stigma of a stay at home dad. It seems like society in gegneral still thinks why isn't that guy supporting his family, what a lazy bum wanting to stay home while the wife brings home the bacon. NOT my opinion, just observation. Sexism is all tied up in both genders and doesn't always negatively impact just females. And I do think it's regional to some degree. Teach your children, male and female, about the billion different ways there are to live life and teach them to think nothing unusual of seeing a female or male doing any type of job, and eventually they'll teach their children the same thing. Couple generations down, we won't even be debating about stupid road signs. Change takes time.

Here's an interesting thoguht to throw out there, that sexism runs both ways. Yes, statistically women do get paid less than men, although that gap is closing every year. There's a lot of little things that taken together can point to sexism in favor of men. But let's not forget that guys get screwed too, based on the old world stereotypes of men. Simple things like not having changing tables in men's room or being made to be the one to check out the strange noise you hear in the garage in the middle of the night. Or assuming a male hairdresser is gay. But what about some of the biggies, like not getting paid leave after the birth of a child. I realize this is starting to change as well, but generally it seems like guys have to move heaven and earth to get time off after a birth, let alone paid childcare time. And forget about the stigma of a stay at home dad. It seems like society in gegneral still thinks why isn't that guy supporting his family, what a lazy bum wanting to stay home while the wife brings home the bacon. NOT my opinion, just observation. Sexism is all tied up in both genders and doesn't always negatively impact just females. And I do think it's regional to some degree. Teach your children, male and female, about the billion different ways there are to live life and teach them to think nothing unusual of seeing a female or male doing any type of job, and eventually they'll teach their children the same thing. Couple generations down, we won't even be debating about stupid road signs. Change takes time.

You are right. Men get the short stick as well quite often.

And I don't think THAT is right either.

I am for HUMAN EQUALITY.

I know this wasn't directed at me.. but when did age difference have a point in any debate? Don't ya think that, just as sexism, that's a form of profiling?

It has a point when we are talking about the changes that have happened in society over time. She has been alive longer, therefore seen more. That is something to be valued, not threatened by, KWIM? It has everything to do with the debate, IMO. She is not saying her opinion is more valid because she is older, she is saying that she has had different experiences because she is older. Two very different things.

You are right. Men get the short stick as well quite often.

And I don't think THAT is right either.

I am for HUMAN EQUALITY.

I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who are, or who have been, nurses. I always thought it was odd when people identified them as male nurses, as in "My friend Mike is a male nurse," as opposed to "My friend Mike is a nurse." That's a REAL female-dominated community, and it's very, very hard for men to get into positions of leadership, because some of the women think they're just freaks and tokens... or gay, of course. :no:duh

I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who are, or who have been, nurses. I always thought it was odd when people identified them as male nurses, as in "My friend Mike is a male nurse," as opposed to "My friend Mike is a nurse." That's a REAL female-dominated community, and it's very, very hard for men to get into positions of leadership, because some of the women think they're just freaks and tokens... or gay, of course. :no:duh

I never understood that either... but then, I also don't understand why toys are labeled 'boy' or 'girl' either.
I'm one of those weird people who only uses male or female when it is NEEDED... as in "My new baby is a little girl!" rather than "I want a girl car"

I never understood that either... but then, I also don't understand why toys are labeled 'boy' or 'girl' either.
I'm one of those weird people who only uses male or female when it is NEEDED... as in "My new baby is a little girl!" rather than "I want a girl car"

HAHAHA...... SOOOOOO, I'm sure you can imagine the ruckus at McDonald's when my kids were ordering Happy Meals and the cashier would ask "Is this for a boy or a girl?" :D:D:D

HAHAHA...... SOOOOOO, I'm sure you can imagine the ruckus at McDonald's when my kids were ordering Happy Meals and the cashier would ask "Is this for a boy or a girl?" :D:D:D

haha.. I'd always specify the exact toy I wanted when I was a kid. and then get mad when they didn't have it :D and sometimes... the 'boy' toys are SO much cooler.

I think the men working sign just falls into the abyss of language quirks and we're to assume it's meant for men and women. Just like people sometimes referring to time as man hours and that sort of thing.

Technically they're getting jilted since in many instances "man" is used synonymously with human but when someone speaks of a woman it's definitely a female. :D

Incidentally, this reminds me of the old joke about why storms are "her" ricanes and not himicanes or why it's HIStory and not HERstory from back in grade school.

I think the men working sign just falls into the abyss of language quirks and we're to assume it's meant for men and women. Just like people sometimes referring to time as man hours and that sort of thing.

Technically they're getting jilted since in many instances "man" is used synonymously with human but when someone speaks of a woman it's definitely a female. :D

Incidentally, this reminds me of the old joke about why storms are "her" ricanes and not himicanes or why it's HIStory and not HERstory from back in grade school.

and MENstrual cycles and MENopause? :giggle

and MENstrual cycles and MENopause? :giggle
lol, those make sense! Both of those things cause pain, and crankiness. :lol

I wish everyone saw it through your eyes and your sensibilities. Sadly, that's not how it works. There is still a glass ceiling, there is still a Boy's Room mentality in a lot of places.

I never got around to telling you this because I never realized it until today

My entire 15 person platoon is all male; I'm the only female. The boys were talking and someone said something about all them bitches and n*****s (um... black people; for those that DON'T know, I can't tolerate racial slurs). I got on him about using the N word but only when I walked away did I realize that he was ALSO refering to the (all of) FOUR females in this unit.

I shit you not, there are only FOUR females in this unit, including myself.

I hate hate HATE that look when I walk into a room with raucous laughter and it all of a sudden stops because the raucous laughter involved either race, religion, gender or sexuality jokes.

Some things piss me off about the glass ceiling. Stuff like "OMG, you made a gender joke, I'm gonna tell the CO!!" Stuff like "OMG, you looked at me wrong, I'm gonna file a sexual harassment investigation!!" THAT'S the kind of stuff we're trying to work past. There's ALWAYS to one girl that makes the men be afraid of her. Not because of her work ethic ("I do it, but I do it better than you!!"), but because of her constant squeemishness of them. Just because a man looks at you or accidentally touches you does NOT a harassment investigation make.

The investigations are designed somehow to work against the alleged harasser now: one off the wall comment that MAY have offended the girly-girl 20 feet away is enough for a reprimand and something in a file and it's unconsciously biased towards females. PFC Snuffy can say something like "Yeah, SGT Jackson's hot" and SPC Linda can technically call it harassment.

We all get sensitivity training, but it's mostly BS. If I'm offended by some gender joke, I'll usually make one back at the man making it: "Oh yeah? Well, why do all women's problems begin with men? Men-stral cycle, men-opause..." It gets the point across... (it's also funny because it usually degrades into blonde jokes XD)

My point is: PC is dead; everyone's just going to have to live with it. The man stumbling onto a female conversation ("Hey, do you happen to have any pads?") is just as awkward and weird as a woman stumbling into a man's conversation ("Oh totally, I would DEFINITELY do Halle Berry"). It's going to happen whether we like it or not.

Eelo: I still don't know enough people yet, but I think you're the only one in this thread that had to deal with the Navy's glass ceiling.

HAHAHA...... SOOOOOO, I'm sure you can imagine the ruckus at McDonald's when my kids were ordering Happy Meals and the cashier would ask "Is this for a boy or a girl?" :D:D:D

I don't remember; how did that turn out? ;)

I'm tired of 'political correctness'

I'm tired of 'political correctness'

PC is dead; no matter what you do or say, you're gonna piss SOMEONE off XD

PC is dead; no matter what you do or say, you're gonna piss SOMEONE off XD

I think that too many people try to take too many 'correct phrases' too far. Mankind.....what's wrong with that??? Manmade, what's wrong with that???

Well, if I have my arms full of diaper bag, toddler and stroller, then I think it's very nice of a man to hold the door for me. Heck, it's very nice of anyone to hold the door for me. Similarly, if I'm the one with the free arms, I'll open the door and hold it for them.

Being "taught to be a gentleman" is great as long as that "gentleman's" mentality doesn't include telling my daughters they can't pursue a certain degree or career because of their gender, or that boys shouldn't do "women's work."

Yeah, this is my line of thinking. It's not about expecting a MAN to open a door for me just because he has a penis and I have a vagina. It's about common human decency. I have NO PROBLEM opening the door for other people no matter what gender they are because I think it is the polite thing to do. I would hope that others would be the same way.

Expecting a man to open the door for you based on gender alone isn't really in line with gender equality, but thinking that it is nice when someone opens the door for you doesn't automatically mean that you want them to do it because of gender. I expect my husband to open the door for me when he gets to it first because letting it slam in my face would hurt, and be pretty darn mean. Walking through it and leaving me on the other side would be rude if we were out in public together. I would open it for him, and I do all the time, as well. Correlation does not imply causation.

So I got to thinking.. when you see a baby out in public, and the baby is wearing pink, do you assume it's a girl? Guys wear pink now. I think it's cute haha.

So I got to thinking.. when you see a baby out in public, and the baby is wearing pink, do you assume it's a girl? Guys wear pink now. I think it's cute haha.
Truthfully, I do assume it's a girl but don't go so far as to say so if I ask about the baby. I'll ask "How old?" and when they answer "he or she is 8 months or whatever" it lets me know if I was right or not. If they don't say I'll just smile and nod. lol

It helps if the ears are pierced.

Then again, in this day and age does it help? Oh man.

I don't remember; how did that turn out? ;)

I think it really messed them up when you wanted the boy one and your jeans-and-t-shirt-clad sister (the one with the masculine-sounding first name) wanted the girly one.

PC is dead; no matter what you do or say, you're gonna piss SOMEONE off XD

I don't look at it as PC or not; I look at it as denied opportunity or not.

PC is dead; no matter what you do or say, you're gonna piss SOMEONE off XD

It annoys me to no end when people say this.
It isn't about being politically correct, it is about being respectful and open to any and all different people.

I mean, if people stopped running around yelling racial slurs and saying "that is SO retarded" then just think of how many people would feel more comfortable. It is about find the CORRECT words for what you are trying to express... not just pulling out words and phrases you KNOW will piss someone off.

Yeah, no matter what someone IS going to get butthurt. that is an unavoidable fact. but there are SO many ways people could change how they speak and how they think that would positively effect EVERYONE.

Taking out gender specific words where they shouldn't be isn't about being politically correct... it just IS correct. If women are there, then it shouldn't say men. if men are there, then it shouldn't say women. If it ISN'T Homosexual, then don't say gay... say another synonym for it. If you are mad at someone for a reason OTHER than their race, don't use racial slurs... if it IS only because of their race... then you are rasist and are gonna find yourself in trouble eventually... but you still shouldn't use racial slurs.

Trying to make everyone happy JUST to avoid conflict isn't what this is about... Trying to make everyone happy because everyone has the RIGHT to be happy is what this is about.

Agreed. Being considerate for others should never go out of style and shouldn't be dependent upon anything except common courtesy between people.

I don't look at it as PC or not; I look at it as denied opportunity or not.

See, I'm not talking about opportunities here. I fully acknowledge I had/have more opportunities for careers than you do. I'm talking about the jokes, the comments and stuff like that.

Speaking of opportunities, there's a "test" going around somewhere in the military about assumptions and stuff. It gives different scenarios about gender and race, such as: "You stop a suspicious looking guy dressed as a gang member; what's the first thing you notice?" Just general questions, no detailed scenario involved.

There's one that says "Joe asks Mary to brew some coffee for a board meeting. Is this sexual harassment?" A few people say yes, but most say "No, maybe Mary makes good coffee."

My point with the PC thing is that you're going to piss someone off anyways. I tell a group of random people I'm voting independent and some are going to go WTFNOWRONG, some are going to go Oh really? Why? and some are going to go yeah, wtfever. Even with the comment I said, some people agree with me, some people are mad at me and some just couldn't care less.

You can please some people some of the time, other people other times, but you can't please everyone at the same time.

I guess that would be the PC way of putting it.

Another example: If people were PC, it would be all flowers and sunshine. No one would want/know/care about the truth as long as everyone is polite and not inconvenienced.

Same thing on the site:

when wifenmommy asked for advice, then essentially told us to go fuck orselves after we all gave it, she got jumped on. Someone then said something about her being pregnant and "should have waited" or something like that. It pissed alot of people off and made sense to more people. Some agreed, some didn't and some were VERY vocal about it.

I'd say that harrassment very rarely happens in a vacuum; there's generally more than one incident, more than one situation. And we're not necessarily talking about harassment, we're talking about denied opportunities.

When a 5 year old boy hears "All men are created equal," chances are he assumes that means everyone. When a 5 year old girl hears the same thing, she will likely question "Does that include me?" Add in some exclusionary language and gender-role stereotyping, and it makes for an inherently unequal situation.

I'd say that harrassment very rarely happens in a vacuum; there's generally more than one incident, more than one situation. And we're not necessarily talking about harassment, we're talking about denied opportunities.

When a 5 year old boy hears "All men are created equal," chances are he assumes that means everyone. When a 5 year old girl hears the same thing, she will likely question "Does that include me?" Add in some exclusionary language and gender-role stereotyping, and it makes for an inherently unequal situation.

i heard the bolded all the time when i was little and i never thought "does it include me"

i heard the bolded all the time when i was little and i never thought "does it include me"


Well then, in my opinion you should be happy that you were lucky enough to not live in an enviornment where that would have been the case.

i heard the bolded all the time when i was little and i never thought "does it include me"

i always wondered that when i was little. maybe it is because i was raised differently and in a different time. i did hear that as a child and i did wonder because i was a girl was i included. but it wasn't just that example i was told way back then that i could never be an astronaut or president and several other jobs because those were boys jobs and not girl jobs.

Well then, in my opinion you should be happy that you were lucky enough to not live in an enviornment where that would have been the case.

oh i know i was lucky but i think part of this debate is because of the differences in age and the times when we all grew up. those in my age group (early 20s) grew up in a completely different time and were told different things.

oh i know i was lucky but i think part of this debate is because of the differences in age and the times when we all grew up. those in my age group (early 20s) grew up in a completely different time and were told different things.

That's what I would hope, but as you can see, there are people in their 20s who still have that mindset, unfortunately. My youngest daughter had some friends down the street who are being raised today in an environment that there are "girls' jobs" and "boys' jobs." They're 10 and 12 years old. Ideally, as they mature they will learn differently, but as of right now, their ideas are very comparble to what my older sisters grew up with, ten years before me.

STA: Part of the reason younger people see things differently is because if the changes in language, usage, and expectations. I just don't want that to be ignored; I won't give up and lost the groupnd that I and others worked so hard to gain for our children.

I never understood that either... but then, I also don't understand why toys are labeled 'boy' or 'girl' either.
I'm one of those weird people who only uses male or female when it is NEEDED... as in "My new baby is a little girl!" rather than "I want a girl car"

I really hate that, I mean crap you take the boys to McDonalds and order a freaking happy meal. Sometimes my oldest wants the girl toy sometimes the boy. So one time I was like he wants the doll, and they just kept repeating girl or boy toy at me until I said girl toy. I think it is awful why can't it just be TOY.

I really hate that, I mean crap you take the boys to McDonalds and order a freaking happy meal. Sometimes my oldest wants the girl toy sometimes the boy. So one time I was like he wants the doll, and they just kept repeating girl or boy toy at me until I said girl toy. I think it is awful why can't it just be TOY.

THANK YOU.
I don't understand why it has to be weird for boys to play with dolls either... I mean... it isn't as weird for girls to play with trucks? so why is it weird for boys to play with dolls??

I guess add "hu" in front of it so people won't get all upset. I personally don't really care at ALL. :dunno

Yep
That's only if the person reading the sign is a close-minded fool, IMO. I have never looked at a sign and assumed only Men are doing that job. No one I've asked today has either. It's the individual's perception, not necessarily the corporation or big bad evil sexist agenda that is subliminally taking digs at women.
Yep

As the old school men filter out, and the ones my age move up, that will change. I work with 34 men and 3 other women. We are 100% equal in that environment, no question about it. It's about talent and skill where I work, and we don't even have to work harder just to be respected equally. And that's in a place that has old school Northrop posters that have phrases like "the men of NG", "a few good Men", etc.


It takes time, but it IS happening. I personally feel that people making a huge deal out of something like a road sign makes a mockery of the good that is happening. It makes it a joke because really, it doesn't need to be such a big deal, kwim?
and Yep

Lets face it, since 1776 the women's movement has been going on. (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html) The flappers and their statement, 1960's and theirs. There has been movement for over 150 years not just the last 50. I'm thankful I have the option to stay at home but now, you get the critizen of people saying you are being "male dominated." I don't see how the sexisim has changed. Just in our own area.

It is great that there is more equality; but sometimes, people go overboard. You must do it now. Like the sign post, were they new signs? Where was it at. Everywhere we have been we have seen "workers ahead." As the signs are being worn out, just replace them. I think of it as a waste, not only of money but of our natural resources, to replace them now.

If the world was perfect, equality would be great. But, do you still want a man to open the door for you? What about when they let the "lady" go first? We want it both ways and you can't. Some men are taught to be a "gentlemen" and that is a dying breed.

I think I love you!

Here's an interesting thoguht to throw out there, that sexism runs both ways. Yes, statistically women do get paid less than men, although that gap is closing every year. There's a lot of little things that taken together can point to sexism in favor of men. But let's not forget that guys get screwed too, based on the old world stereotypes of men. Simple things like not having changing tables in men's room or being made to be the one to check out the strange noise you hear in the garage in the middle of the night. Or assuming a male hairdresser is gay. But what about some of the biggies, like not getting paid leave after the birth of a child. I realize this is starting to change as well, but generally it seems like guys have to move heaven and earth to get time off after a birth, let alone paid childcare time. And forget about the stigma of a stay at home dad. It seems like society in gegneral still thinks why isn't that guy supporting his family, what a lazy bum wanting to stay home while the wife brings home the bacon. NOT my opinion, just observation. Sexism is all tied up in both genders and doesn't always negatively impact just females. And I do think it's regional to some degree. Teach your children, male and female, about the billion different ways there are to live life and teach them to think nothing unusual of seeing a female or male doing any type of job, and eventually they'll teach their children the same thing. Couple generations down, we won't even be debating about stupid road signs. Change takes time.

Oh I soooo agree

It annoys me to no end when people say this.
It isn't about being politically correct, it is about being respectful and open to any and all different people.

I mean, if people stopped running around yelling racial slurs and saying "that is SO retarded" then just think of how many people would feel more comfortable. It is about find the CORRECT words for what you are trying to express... not just pulling out words and phrases you KNOW will piss someone off.

Yeah, no matter what someone IS going to get butthurt. that is an unavoidable fact. but there are SO many ways people could change how they speak and how they think that would positively effect EVERYONE.

Taking out gender specific words where they shouldn't be isn't about being politically correct... it just IS correct. If women are there, then it shouldn't say men. if men are there, then it shouldn't say women. If it ISN'T Homosexual, then don't say gay... say another synonym for it. If you are mad at someone for a reason OTHER than their race, don't use racial slurs... if it IS only because of their race... then you are rasist and are gonna find yourself in trouble eventually... but you still shouldn't use racial slurs.

Trying to make everyone happy JUST to avoid conflict isn't what this is about... Trying to make everyone happy because everyone has the RIGHT to be happy is what this is about.

I love you !!!!!!

THANK YOU.
I don't understand why it has to be weird for boys to play with dolls either... I mean... it isn't as weird for girls to play with trucks? so why is it weird for boys to play with dolls??

Mentality/mindset check:

In our society, it's still okay for a girl to "aspire" to be a boy, but it's bad for a boy to "aspire" to be a girl. It has nothing to do with which toy they want to play with; the kids thoughts and ideas are pure at this point, they just want that toy because it looks interesting.

And by telling the girl it's okay for her to be like a boy (heck, sometimes encouraging it) and telling the boy it's bad or unusual or weird for him to want to be like a girl, we're sending a message to them, that they do learn.

THANK YOU.
I don't understand why it has to be weird for boys to play with dolls either... I mean... it isn't as weird for girls to play with trucks? so why is it weird for boys to play with dolls??

I know girls can play with everything and on average society is ok with it. (I know some homes girls can only play with "girl" things) Yet littlest pet shop and Dora and what have you are only for "girls".

Shoot finding a gender neutral kitchen set is really hard too. Which always strikes me as odd because a majority of professional chefs are male. So at what point is it ok for boys to like cooking? Jacob lives to cook and clean. :)

I know girls can play with everything and on average society is ok with it. (I know some homes girls can only play with "girl" things) Yet littlest pet shop and Dora and what have you are only for "girls".

Shoot finding a gender neutral kitchen set is really hard too. Which always strikes me as odd because a majority of professional chefs are male. So at what point is it ok for boys to like cooking? Jacob lives to cook and clean. :)

I've always found that weird too that the kitchen was women's work when chefs are so often men.

Mentality/mindset check:

In our society, it's still okay for a girl to "aspire" to be a boy, but it's bad for a boy to "aspire" to be a girl. It has nothing to do with which toy they want to play with; the kids thoughts and ideas are pure at this point, they just want that toy because it looks interesting.

And by telling the girl it's okay for her to be like a boy (heck, sometimes encouraging it) and telling the boy it's bad or unusual or weird for him to want to be like a girl, we're sending a message to them, that they do learn.

They learn it even if you as the parents don't teach them either sadly. I have tried to raise my boys knowing they can play anything, & pretend to be anything they want to be. Society though still reaches them and my oldest has learned girl/boy toy. My sisters tease because he likes musicals and dancing, they want him in sports he MUST play in soccer or baseball or he will be the funny kid. :(

How sad that closed minded people forget the famous male Broadway, opera, or ballet stars. Darian is not in ANY organized sports or dance but I plan on letting him choose one this year and it will be what ever he wants to do. (be that soccer or tap dance) He likes music and I am not going to steal his enjoyment from him.

They learn it even if you as the parents don't teach them either sadly. I have tried to raise my boys knowing they can play anything, & pretend to be anything they want to be. Society though still reaches them and my oldest has learned girl/boy toy. My sisters tease because he likes musicals and dancing, they want him in sports he MUST play in soccer or baseball or he will be the funny kid. :(

How sad that closed minded people forget the famous male Broadway, opera, or ballet stars. Darian is not in ANY organized sports or dance but I plan on letting him choose one this year and it will be what ever he wants to do. (be that soccer or tap dance) He likes music and I am not going to steal his enjoyment from him.

You are such a cool momma :)
I wish boys could get away with doing whatever made them happy like girls can now. Guys often have the nicest singing voices... but I am partial to deep voices... haha. Guys also are better at singing bigger ranges than girls as well... their voices can be trained to sing really high and really low if they put effort into it.
I think it is horrible that your sisters tease :(

Sadly,it's not going to be just the sisters who tease, or make odd faces, or re-direct play to something deemed more 'appropriate,' or things like that.

It's not necessarily offensive for a girl to want to do 'boyish' things, because that's considered a step up for her. It's cool for a girl to want to be an engineer (and hopefully she has family and friends who will encourage her) or an athlete or a truck driver, almost quaint: "Aw, looky the little princess wanting to be a boy...." She's called a tomboy, which doesn't usually have negative connotations.

Take a boy, however, who wants to play with dolls, or spend time int eh kitchen, or vacuum the rugs, or become a nurse, and he's teased, made fun of, and called names that aren't very nice. Even an inocuous word like "gay," which is sooooo much nicer than 'fag' or 'queer,' has been retrofitted to mean something distasteful or wrong (that's so gay!).

The stereotypes and the language cues are still there, and kids are still hearing it and learning it.

Sadly,it's not going to be just the sisters who tease, or make odd faces, or re-direct play to something deemed more 'appropriate,' or things like that.

It's not necessarily offensive for a girl to want to do 'boyish' things, because that's considered a step up for her. It's cool for a girl to want to be an engineer (and hopefully she has family and friends who will encourage her) or an athlete or a truck driver, almost quaint: "Aw, looky the little princess wanting to be a boy...." She's called a tomboy, which doesn't usually have negative connotations.

Take a boy, however, who wants to play with dolls, or spend time int eh kitchen, or vacuum the rugs, or become a nurse, and he's teased, made fun of, and called names that aren't very nice. Even an inocuous word like "gay," which is sooooo much nicer than 'fag' or 'queer,' has been retrofitted to mean something distasteful or wrong (that's so gay!).

The stereotypes and the language cues are still there, and kids are still hearing it and learning it.

It pisses me off soo much too to hear people talk like that. To try to tell boys they can't cook or clean or do anything traditionally thought to be "girls work"
and it makes me angry that I am somehow more special if I decide I want to do something traditionally considered "for boys" as if I am finally being BETTER than my sex... I can't stand the term "tomboy" .. or "girly boy" for that matter (thanks arnold)
And my BIGGEST issue is when people say 'that is so gay.' no... no it isn't... it is not homosexual.. it isn't ANYTHING sexual. It isn't happy either because it doesn't have emotion. And boys who like to cook or clean or nurse are not gay. nor are they gay because they like pink. or barbies.

which brings a whole new topic on how gay guys aren't always "girlie" and not all lesbians are "butch" and that those are just stereotypes that some happen to fit... and some DONT. and the stereotypes wouldn't even exist if we didn't have gender roles where boys and girls are expected to act differently. Boys and girls are essentially the same. PEOPLE are different from each other.

I think it's ridiculous, who cares, I could care less if its mankind, womankind, humankind...it doesnt matter to me, its just a word.

It's "just a word" until you're denied a job, a promotion, or something else because of it.

I think that we should spend money on something else besides changing the signs. lol.

I'm a bit of a feminist but I'm not going to be bothered over things that have been "just so" since men first learned to wipe their asses with a leaf.
We've always refered to the huMAN race as "HUMANKIND" or "MANKIND" (In all due respect - shortening HUMAN down to MAN is just a sign of laziness.)

What - because women, in the 1900's, FINALLY fought for equal rights all of a sudden we have to change our ancient words and watch what we say?
Like when Homosexuals decided they were going to be "GAY" and took that word over - now "GAY" will always mean "homosexual" and nothing else.
Or like when our country went all slavist-state and now everything with the word "black" in it is considered a racist jilt. :rolleyes

There's a time and a place for every concern and worry - and that time and place isn't over things that have been around for countless centuries. (gay, black humor, and mankind)

Kind of sad that women's lib is a modern thing, yeah? :shrug They failed but we don't have to pine over it. (edit: failed as in: it's a modern thing (women's lib, equality, etc) ... it failed to change, sooner than our feeble last ## years)

My Momma always told me "They're MEN and we are WO-MEN because THEY are a bit simpler than us." :lol

And after a lifetime - I find that to be true.

That's only if the person reading the sign is a close-minded fool, IMO. I have never looked at a sign and assumed only Men are doing that job. No one I've asked today has either. It's the individual's perception, not necessarily the corporation or big bad evil sexist agenda that is subliminally taking digs at women.

:yes

I always open the door for my husband. I also walk faster and get to it FIRST. If he were to pick up the step and get to it to open it for me, i'd be just as happy.

Just because I am a woman doesn't mean I expect men to hold the door for me. I expect whomever gets to the door FIRST to hold the door.

I DO want equality. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second. I want men to be seen as Humans first, and men second. We are ALL essentially the same. Yeah, there are differences between the sexes (a lot of it TAUGHT) but there are differences WITHIN the sexes as well.

I expect the most capable and the most willing to do what needs to be done. If that means a woman has to build a bridge while a man is a nurse, perfect. If that means that a Man is a police officer while a woman is a stay at home mom, just as perfect.

I agree with you. :thumbsup

Here's an interesting thoguht to throw out there, that sexism runs both ways. Yes, statistically women do get paid less than men, although that gap is closing every year. There's a lot of little things that taken together can point to sexism in favor of men. But let's not forget that guys get screwed too, based on the old world stereotypes of men. Simple things like not having changing tables in men's room or being made to be the one to check out the strange noise you hear in the garage in the middle of the night. Or assuming a male hairdresser is gay. But what about some of the biggies, like not getting paid leave after the birth of a child. I realize this is starting to change as well, but generally it seems like guys have to move heaven and earth to get time off after a birth, let alone paid childcare time. And forget about the stigma of a stay at home dad. It seems like society in gegneral still thinks why isn't that guy supporting his family, what a lazy bum wanting to stay home while the wife brings home the bacon. NOT my opinion, just observation. Sexism is all tied up in both genders and doesn't always negatively impact just females. And I do think it's regional to some degree. Teach your children, male and female, about the billion different ways there are to live life and teach them to think nothing unusual of seeing a female or male doing any type of job, and eventually they'll teach their children the same thing. Couple generations down, we won't even be debating about stupid road signs. Change takes time.

Exactly!

i heard the bolded all the time when i was little and i never thought "does it include me"

Same for me :shrug

I'm a bit of a feminist but I'm not going to be bothered over things that have been "just so" since men first learned to wipe their asses with a leaf.
We've always refered to the huMAN race as "HUMANKIND" or "MANKIND" (In all due respect - shortening HUMAN down to MAN is just a sign of laziness.)

What - because women, in the 1900's, FINALLY fought for equal rights all of a sudden we have to change our ancient words and watch what we say?
Like when Homosexuals decided they were going to be "GAY" and took that word over - now "GAY" will always mean "homosexual" and nothing else.
Or like when our country went all slavist-state and now everything with the word "black" in it is considered a racist jilt. :rolleyes

There's a time and a place for every concern and worry - and that time and place isn't over things that have been around for countless centuries. (gay, black humor, and mankind)

Kind of sad that women's lib is a modern thing, yeah? :shrug They failed but we don't have to pine over it.

My Momma always told me "They're MEN and we are WO-MEN because THEY are a bit simpler than us." :lol

And after a lifetime - I find that to be true.

:lol I agree with you and I love the bolded. :D

Kind of sad that women's lib is a modern thing, yeah? They failed but we don't have to pine over it.

You think that women's lib failed? What IS "women's lib," exactly?

You see- my military retirement paycheck every month is living proof that the Women's Movement didn't fail me. In this forum alone we have female lawyers, architects, engineers, equipment operators..... quite the range of nontraditional careers and employment, in addition to women who have made the choice to be at-home parents.

If and when you are able to leave the situation you alternately describe as horrific and tolerable, it will be women's lib that allows that to happen (and might even help it). Back in the 40s and 50s, you couldn't have even dreamed of getting out of that situation, and whether you actually do or not, the fact that you understand it's possible is a major shift in thinking from back in my mother's day,or even from my early childhood.

Textbooks that acknowledge, and actively teach, the role of women and African-Americans, Native Americans, Hispanics, Asians and other minorities in American and world history are quite different from what I had growing up. Even the readers I used in elementary school were filled with stories of white folks in gender-specific roles, while today the readers and textbooks paint a colorful picture, using as many threads of the American fabric as we can find.

These things are the result of the Women's Movement and the Civil Rights Movement. It's unfortunate that they had to be labeled as such, and that we can look back on events and think "Wow, that Gloria Steinem was such a radical," but the simple fact is, without BIG radical steps then, we wouldn't have our current version of 'normal' now. I'm not willing to take a step backwards.

It really saddens me to hear that, in spite of all the efforts parents put towards teaching their sons and/or daughters that their gender shouldn't stop them from pretending to be certain things, playing with certain things and aspiring to be whatever they want, somehow all the prejudices and societal boundaries get to them anyway.

I sort of got the impression that even the closed-minded folks who still think anything outside of their norm is an abomination have come to accept times have changed and realize that although they don't agree with a lot of the new norms, they're here and not going anywhere. I've been feeling like the world is more open-minded than it was even 10 years ago. Suppose that's not enough to keep Mickey D's from telling me which happy meal toy my kid should play with.

Man that sucks so much. (I can't think of a more eloquent way to put it. lol.)

Kind of sad that women's lib is a modern thing, yeah? They failed but we don't have to pine over it.

You think that women's lib failed? What IS "women's lib," exactly?


Sorry - that's NOT what I meant but it sure came out that way, eh?

I *meant* that they failed to pull it around sooner - and so it's a modern thing.

Sorry - that's NOT what I meant but it sure came out that way, eh?

I *meant* that they failed to pull it around sooner - and so it's a modern thing.

LOL!!!!

Okay then..... never mind.

:D

LOL!!!!

Okay then..... never mind.

:D

LOL - it's ok, I should have read my post before posting it. :D

ITA with everything in re to gender specific jobs (Seriously, wth is a "male nurse?" That is the silliest phrase that is still being used. How weird would it be if I called a woman a "female nurse?" Geez.)

As far as strictly gender specific words go... I think the movement to change all of them can be over the top at times. An interesting thing to me is that a lot of languages assign gender to nouns. It would be basically impossible to remove all reference to gender from them. But for some reason, there is an obsession with removing any gender from our language. I really find it odd. I studied German in school and it took forever to wrap my head around the concept, but it's just a fact of the language. "Earth" is a feminine word. "Pencil" is male. "Car" is neuter. It's just a structural part of the language, and many languages are the same way. It's also a pretty common understanding that words (and their translations) like "mankind" refer to both men and women.

I am of the younger generation, and I completely understand that things have not always been this way (referring to the equality that we do have). I am indeed grateful for those who have gone before and asserted their strength to fight for change. I'm not saying that the fight should end, just that we should pick our battles. If you nitpick at everything, you're less likely to be taken seriously on the bigger issues.

Conversely, I think there is also nothing wrong with embracing a traditional gender role if that is what you want. Personally, I am fiercely independent, studied in a college major that was about 95% male (at a university that overall was about 70% female), and now work in an industry that has always prided itself on being made up of the "good ol' boys." Things are changing, but probably only in the last decade, maybe 2.

However, I am a female. I love being female. I like wearing skirts and heels, when a guy opens the door for me, and I think the man should pay for dinner. But, I hold my own and command respect in a cutthroat industry every day. I do not think it makes me any less of a strong, independent woman just because someday I would love to get married and eventually be a SAHM.

Fight to break the glass ceiling, sure. But getting riled up over a "Men at Work" sign? A little much for me.