I have often wondered why religion and science do not go hand in hand. I for one believe in evolution to a certain extent. I mean I am not sure that we came from monkeys. Anyway, my family is very, very religious and if I ever bring up that I believe in evolution at all I get slammed. I was wondering what you believe, and why. Why can't God and science just work together. I mean God created science right?

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

You said it PERFECTLY!! I agree with everything you just said!

Do you really want me to give you my answer? I am agnostic x atheist. My answer is going to be controversial and it may piss off alot of christians. I know this may be a debate- but um.. yeah.. if it hasn't started before i say what i got to say- it will.

Has anyone watched the movies "what the bleep do we know"... that sums up what i believe. We are here to change the world. What we see is what we make of it. I also believe in evolution.

well im not knocking anyones beliefs here so let me get that straight up front.


ok i am a christian and I believe in God and I do not believe in evolution or the fact that we came from monkeys. God created Adam who was a man and thats how mankind got started. I believe in the Bible which was written by man thru the inspiration of God and no where in there does it even mention evolution. now as far as ideas evolving and ideas thats probably the only thing i believe gets evolved but mankind no.


but this is my opinion.

I believe in evolution and science and God. I believe science and God can go hand in hand but people that are on either side can't see the other way at all. I can't believe the Bible as a truth because it's a book. A crazy person could have written it and said God was talking through him. Back in the days when science wasn't around to answer questions such as "what is the sun and why does it move across the sky" people explained it as a work of a Sun god in his chariot. As science developed and explanations for natural phenomenon developed religion did not change it's view. It stayed the same as it always was, not necessarily contradicting, but closing people's minds to science. Scientists are no different because they lack the ability to believe in things they can't feel or see or prove. I can't believe that there aren't things that can't be proved by science at this point. God is a being that can't be fathomed in the human brain. I believe there is a higher level of being, one we call God, that can control things we can't fathom. Do I think he created the world and just plopped humans on the earth? No, how can 3 million year old skulls that only look sort of human be discovered? Did God put them there to test our faith or are they monkeys that looked more human than they did now?

I believe in evolution and science and God. I believe science and God can go hand in hand but people that are on either side can't see the other way at all. I can't believe the Bible as a truth because it's a book. A crazy person could have written it and said God was talking through him. Back in the days when science wasn't around to answer questions such as "what is the sun and why does it move across the sky" people explained it as a work of a Sun god in his chariot. As science developed and explanations for natural phenomenon developed religion did not change it's view. It stayed the same as it always was, not necessarily contradicting, but closing people's minds to science. Scientists are no different because they lack the ability to believe in things they can't feel or see or prove. I can't believe that there aren't things that can't be proved by science at this point. God is a being that can't be fathomed in the human brain. I believe there is a higher level of being, one we call God, that can control things we can't fathom. Do I think he created the world and just plopped humans on the earth? No, how can 3 million year old skulls that only look sort of human be discovered? Did God put them there to test our faith or are they monkeys that looked more human than they did now?

That's exactly how I feel on the subject, but I was having trouble putting it so eloquently!

I believe in evolution and science and God. I believe science and God can go hand in hand but people that are on either side can't see the other way at all. I can't believe the Bible as a truth because it's a book. A crazy person could have written it and said God was talking through him. Back in the days when science wasn't around to answer questions such as "what is the sun and why does it move across the sky" people explained it as a work of a Sun god in his chariot. As science developed and explanations for natural phenomenon developed religion did not change it's view. It stayed the same as it always was, not necessarily contradicting, but closing people's minds to science. Scientists are no different because they lack the ability to believe in things they can't feel or see or prove. I can't believe that there aren't things that can't be proved by science at this point. God is a being that can't be fathomed in the human brain. I believe there is a higher level of being, one we call God, that can control things we can't fathom. Do I think he created the world and just plopped humans on the earth? No, how can 3 million year old skulls that only look sort of human be discovered? Did God put them there to test our faith or are they monkeys that looked more human than they did now?

Very well said and I totally agree.

Do you really want me to give you my answer? I am agnostic x atheist. My answer is going to be controversial and it may piss off alot of christians. I know this may be a debate- but um.. yeah.. if it hasn't started before i say what i got to say- it will.

Please say what you want. This is debate, and many people may not agree with what you believe, but it is still your opinion. :D I want to hear what you have to say!!!

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

Very well said :yes. I completely agree.

I'm not in this to debate anything ;) Say how you feel, say what you think - your beliefs won't piss me off...but they might cause me to pray for you :giggle

Ok.. food for thought.

Earth- approx. 4.55 billion years old.

Dinosaurs - existed approx. 230 - 60 million years ago

Human (homo sapien) like remains have been found dated back from 10 million years ago.

How long has life existed on earth? The oldest known fossils are approximately 3.5 billion years old

Paganism- 1st religion on earth. formed roughly 2000 years before the beginning of christianity.

Christ- born apparently 2000 years ago.

I could go on but you get my point there.

Ok - SO!

Paganism was the first religion ever to be on earth. BEFORE CHRISTIANITY! Now Paganism has nothing to do with the devil. Infact its completely the opposite. Pagans worshipped Earth, life, Goddess & Women. Women were the devine goddess. They gave birth to new life, so they were worshipped. Men worshipped women. And they all worshipped the Earth- their home. They lived in peace and they gave blessings to things like agriculture, life, animals & the universe. Ofcourse they had sex like there was no tomorrow. But before Christianity- sex was not a sin. It was something beautiful, not something to be ashamed of. Sex gave life- and that is what paganism is all about.

So then Christianity comes in. MALE DOMINATED. Male God, Male offspring, Male prophets, SEX IS A SIN, worshipping anything else but CHRIST & GOD was pure evil, coming straight from the devil. ONCE again.. MALE. It's completely different to Paganism. Paganism = Devine GodDESS. Christianity = MALE GOD. So the Church comes in with a book- a book that "proves" what they are trying to get to the world. All of a sudden, Paganism is banished. If you didn't join the Church- you were killed. Burnt to the stake etc. So ofcourse, the loyal pagans went underground so they wouldn't be killed. Secret meetings, etc. A "cult".. "devil worshippers".

My point is- Pagans were there before God. They were the true religion of the time until God was unleashed. People were killed if they wern't believers. Thats not very god like is it? No ofcourse not! They had to kill the ones who didn't believe because God had to over power any other belief of all time. Which it did.

If God is real- explain why the bible contradicts itself many times over. One part is saying once you die- you get judged and either go to heaven or hell. The next its saying your going to die and then be in a "resting period" until the rest of the souls can join.. i believe that is in the book of Revelations. How can Adam & Eve have existed if life was found way before that time? How can God have made the universe- when no one made God?! Where did god come from? Did he have his own big bang and just pop up? What would exist if there were no universe?

I could go on for so long. This is topic is my most passionate. I have done timeless amounts of research. I am agnostic- and I do wish i wasn't for the simple reason i would have guidance. But i don't. I know that spirits exist (thatd contradict the bible yet again)- i have encountered them myself. But i also know that when a evil entity is around- all you need to do is quote a bible verse and it goes away. I contradict myself a million times just like the rest of the world does. We have no REAL proof on anything. I believe what i see- and ive seen alot on both sides. I believe science, i believe in evolution, and i believe that everyone has a right to believe what they wish. So for the christians, jews, etc out there, Kudos to you for having faith in something that helps you everyday.

I believe in evolution to a point. Sure living things (plants and animals) change over time. Everything adapts. Do I believe humans came from monkeys, NO! Do I believe humans came from ameoba, NO! I believe in creation story of Genesis. Yes I think we have changed some since then. We are taller for one. But I think things like our appendix and tonsills used to be good for something but we evolved and no longer needed them and now they are useless organs.

and I agree with Becca, nothing anyone says is going to piss me off, but it might make me pray for you :D

I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states.

Humans wrote the book of genesis. Ofcourse the book is going to state that we are created in the image of god. Specially if god was jus made up to dominate paganism.

It's really easy to talk yourself out of faith. It's easy to tell youreself that the bible is untrue, for whatever reason one may choose. It's really easy to look at scientific research and say "This makes sense, this is logical, this must be what really happened...". BUT, faith defies both logic and science. Faith is miracles. Faith has no explanation. ;)

Sure humans wrote the bible - but I don't believe they wrote it alone ;)

I have no comment since I dont really believe in a god but do a higher power and do believe alot of science but not all......BUT Ya'll just posted one of my hubbys FAVORITE debates :lol

If you were raised to believe you had an invisble monkey on your shoulder- you would believe it. Just like when we were kids, we were raised to believe in santa clause. ofcourse there is a cut off age for that. There is no cut off age for god. I just think that if you havn't been raised to believe- its harder to believe. I havn't been raised to believe in god, infact only 27% of Australians have been. Now imagine if the world was raised to believe that we had an invisible monkey on our shoulder?

You make a very valid point and are absolutely right that it's harder to believe if you haven't been raised to believe. I agree 100% :yes

BUT Ya'll just posted one of my hubbys FAVORITE debates

Lol Kaymara- same as dh. Cept he gets angry when i put my point across :lol

My DH is agnostic, it kind've makes things hard sometimes...but we've had some pretty interesting convo's...

Ok.. food for thought.

Paganism- 1st religion on earth. formed roughly 2000 years before the beginning of christianity.

Christ- born apparently 2000 years ago.

I could go on but you get my point there.

Ok - SO!

Paganism was the first religion ever to be on earth. BEFORE CHRISTIANITY! Now Paganism has nothing to do with the devil. Infact its completely the opposite. Pagans worshipped Earth, life, Goddess & Women. Women were the devine goddess. They gave birth to new life, so they were worshipped. Men worshipped women. And they all worshipped the Earth- their home. They

So then Christianity comes in. MALE DOMINATED. Male God, Male offspring, Male prophets, SEX IS A SIN, worshipping anything else but CHRIST & GOD was pure evil, coming straight from the devil.

My point is- Pagans were there before God. They were the true religion of the time until God was unleashed. People were killed if they wern't believers. Thats not very god like is it? No ofcourse not! They had to kill the ones who didn't believe because God had to over power any other belief of all time. Which it did.


There is no point to what I'm saying but to clear up the history a bit. Judaism and the belief in monotheism came long before Jesus. They believed in a male dominated single God that was to be not have any idols. Also, the religions before monotheism had both male and female deities and in several religions were male dominated. BUT, women were always set in equal terms. Christianity came about in a time when monotheistic believers were having a tough time praying to a God they weren't allowed to idolize. So in comes Jesus and they make him the literal Son of God and now idolatry can return.

Unfortunately, in the past, religion has been used a tool for power because the ramifications of not following your God's rules instill fear amongst people. To really analyze the religion and what it means, you have to separate the acts of the people acting for power from the equation. That's all.

Can I ask those that do not believe in any kind of evolution to explain what is or what happened to the bones of humans found to be 3 million years old? Lucy or Lucy's child is what they like to call them. I'm curious.

Lol Kaymara- same as dh. Cept he gets angry when i put my point across :lol

Heh. Well mine is an evolutionist (his beliefs) And science! He gets passionate. I am sure hatetank (my hubster) will be on here later tonight :lol

You make a very valid point and are absolutely right that it's harder to believe if you haven't been raised to believe. I agree 100%

Thats where its hard to know the real truth. If you have been raised to believe, you will most likely keep believing. So in my opinion, thats exactly how God became so "almighty"- it was a tall tail- that just kept on going.. parents taught their children to believe, the children taught their children to believe- etc etc.

Who knows really?! Its a fascinating subject- i have opinions on all sides.

There is no point to what I'm saying but to clear up the history a bit. Judaism and the belief in monotheism came long before Jesus. They believed in a male dominated single God that was to be not have any idols. Also, the religions before monotheism had both male and female deities and in several religions were male dominated. BUT, women were always set in equal terms. Christianity came about in a time when monotheistic believers were having a tough time praying to a God they weren't allowed to idolize. So in comes Jesus and they make him the literal Son of God and now idolatry can return.

When i say christianity hun, i mean the belief in god ,,,in general. I havn't slept so im just abbreviating things a little. But what i do know and what i have said is- that paganism is by far the oldest religion on this planet. And its completely different to the church (ill call it that since i cant b bothered saying everything else). Female dominated (yet equal at the same time) then all of a sudden the "truth" comes in.. and its male dominated. Lol that makes me roll my eyes.

Battle of the sexes if u ask me.

Actually I believe God and science do go hand in hand but people can't put God and science together. People invented science and who is to say that people aren't wrong about things... like carbon dating and such. There is proof out there that carbon dating is very inacurate because calculations are wrong with how fast carbon decomposes or whatever.

I attended lectures by a Biologist. He had doctorate degrees in several areas of biology... microbiology etc. etc. After that I was thoroughly convinced that God and science mesh very well but the problem is most scientists don't want them to work together. I really wish I had all my materials that I recieved at this lecture. The man was a genius and had so much evidence, things that the general public doesn't have knowledge of.

science and faith cannot go hand in hand because scientists like to have tangible evidence and that is not offered by faith--hence the word faith. i am a catholic but i don't practice all that often. i just think it is something that will never go hand in hand

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.



I definitely agree with that statement!

I agree aswell.

And when you delve deeper with the paranormal- you can most definately see that science, nor faith have the answers.

Ahhhhhhhhhh my husband seems to be a devout christian that never practices at all!! Lol he gets shitty with my beliefs- and then he tries to make me believe his. He is funny. Im sure if he sees this debate later he will say that science is nothing but a load of codswallop.

I believe in the scientific facts that are available to us here on earth.

I was religious well into my 20's and never guestioned things until that time. My MAIN reasonings have to do with the fact that I refuse to believe in a book the was written entirely by man and that holds so much violence! When I was younger and went to church all I heard was that god was a god of love and forgiveness, yet that is not what I read today when I open my bible. It's like those parts are skipped over. It was very male dominated as well! Also where did all of the races and different people come from.....if you can't believe in evolution then how do you explain the many different people that exist on planet earth!

Also it would be entirely impossible to fit two of each animal on one boat.......along with enough food to sustain life for that length of time.

It's also entirely impossible to feed a huge crowd of people with five loaves of bread and two fish...but Jesus did it.

And here we are back again to that pesky little word 'faith'...

well i would like to address the part where someone said that the bible was written by humans. yes it was but it just wasnt written in a normal way. those men were inspired by God to write those things down. now the King James Version of the Bible has alot of errors in it and its the translation that most people are confused with specially the book of Revelation. I cannot begin to fathom that book.


I come from a religious background but right at this time im not practicing it like i should but that doesnt mean that i still dont have my beliefs.


you would be surprised how many Australians I know that do believe in God.

I think God uses the scientific facts that humans have discovered to prove that he does exist.

Most people and myself included with our human minds cannot even begin to comprehend that God has never had a beginning. He has always been. To me thats hard to imagine since most of us do not fully understand the concept of eternity and that from what we believe everything has a beginning everything and everyone but God.

And here we are back again to that pesky little word 'faith'...
Yep, you either have it or you don't. To people with faith it's impossible to explain; to people without it it's impossible to understand. That's why I've always thought the God/evolution argument was pointless. Both sides have valid arguments and no one ever actually says, 'well by god, you're right! That makes perfect sense, I DO see how we came from apes!" :shrug

Thats where its hard to know the real truth. If you have been raised to believe, you will most likely keep believing. So in my opinion, thats exactly how God became so "almighty"- it was a tall tail- that just kept on going.. parents taught their children to believe, the children taught their children to believe- etc etc.

Who knows really?! Its a fascinating subject- i have opinions on all sides.

I think that was part of my point before - that the idea of God/Gods/Goddesses was developed because natural phenomenon could not be explained. People grew up with that explanation of why the sun rose, the stars were out, people died, etc. That doesn't hold water anymore, imo.

Also, I think part of any religion coming to fruition is timing - when people are ready for change. Judaism supposedly started before this, but its organization happened when Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. If in fact that is a relatively true story the Jewish slaves were ready for a leader and got one with Moses. It didn't matter if they truly believed then - in fact Yom Kippur is the day of atonement that supposedly started because the followers of Moses were still praying to idols.

The same thing with Jesus - I think people were ready and needing to pray to something tangible.

well i would like to address the part where someone said that the bible was written by humans. yes it was but it just wasnt written in a normal way. those men were inspired by God to write those things down.

But who said they were inspired by God? The people who wrote it? Can you imagine if the Bible were rewritten today by someone who was inspired by God? Everything would think he was crazy and an heretic.

Honestly, I can't read what everyone wrote. I am very passionate about my faith in the Lord, so I know it will just make me crazy. :lol I think this is a very good debate though, and everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings.

I don't think that scientists know everything. A lot of their work comes from educated guesses. I believe in God, and I believe in the Bible. Some things in the Bible are left up to interpretation. Did Noah really take 2 of every animal on the ark? :dunno You have to think back to the animals that were around back then. And the animals that were around him. We just picture 2 of every common animal...the point of that story is, God spoke to him, he put his faith in God and obeyed. Faith plays a HUGE role in religion and God. It's hard to put your faith in something you can't see, but we have the Bible as proof and that's enough for me.

Right now I believe in what I believe... I believe in many different things not one thing specific and I really dont want to get into it. But for me when I die I will find out what happens for right now I dont really care too much. :dunno I have my beliefs and they do change sometimes... they arent one religion at all just a mix of different ones.

What I don't understand is why people of faith, get annoyed when people/scientist question the validity of biblical stories....from a scientific view point. If your faith is strong it shouldn't matter one bit what's said or what's not said.

The only time I get annoyed with christians is when they try to tell me that I'll burn in hell for not finding the "faith" to deny all scientific fact that goes agianst the bible as they do........(nobody here just in general)

Also a question that I ponder often, is if this world did start with only one man and one woman.........wouldn't insect be an integral part of our very being :scared

Something we are taught is WRONG in the eyes of god:dunno

What I don't understand is why people of faith, get annoyed when people/scientist question the validity of biblical stories....from a scientific view point. If your faith is strong it shouldn't matter one bit what's said or what's not said.

The only time I get annoyed with christians is when they try to tell me that I'll burn in hell for not finding the "faith" to deny all scientific fact that goes agianst the bible as they do........(nobody here just in general)

Also a question that I ponder often, is if this world did start with only one man and one woman.........wouldn't insect be an integral part of our very being :scared

Something we are taught is WRONG in the eyes of god:dunno

Oooh i know what you mean I had a friend who said that to me... all I said was fine I'll see you there cuz your not perfect either. It just annoys me...I dont know whats gonna happen when I die... when I die then I'll find out till then it doesnt really matter. :P

I just want to be sure I'm not coming across as annoyed. I'm really not annoyed at all :)

Scientists can question the validity until they're blue in the face - they're scientists, that alone is cause for them to question the validity and try to prove every theory under the sun to be right or wrong. I think that's part of what sparked this thread in the first place.

I am strong in my faith, therefore it has no bearing on my life if the next guy believes or not. I would hope that the next guy could understand the power of faith and what it can do for him/her internally - I really wish that the next guy could feel the enormous weight that is lifted off of his/her shoulders when he/she has a crisis and really and truly lets go and gives it up to God. It's a powerful thing...and I just wish that the next guy could feel that kind of peace. But without faith - the next guy will never know.

I would REALLY love to get in to this, but two things would happen: I'd have a 10,000 word debate that maybe three people would read, and by the time I was done, it'd be time for me to go to work. So I'll come out and say this:

Religion and Science are BOTH right to a degree. The common denominator of the world, the universe and EVERY single thing in it is the simple electron. We have a finite amount of these, and even though it's a HUGE amount, we will eventually have to recycle them. Anything biological decays, releasing these electrons into the environment. Time and nature recycle these free electrons into other forms.. more rocks, more air, fire.. even life. Reincarnation, ghosts and countless other "mysteries" can be answered with a question we learned the answer to in elementary school: Energy never dissipates, it just changes form.

Some will ask "Well then, who started all of this?!" and I'll tell you that it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What matters is merely the fact that every human being, no matter how much they say they aren't, are afraid of death. Death signifies the end of this life, and both religion AND science state that we'll return in another form. Congratulations, we've married science and religion at it's core principles.

I'll post more later once this debate begins to expand into other territories, or begins slacking off. I have a LOT of answers for you :)

Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

:yes

Lol but the bible could be some stupid book full of hogswash. for all we know a bunch of guys coulda been sitting round a campfire laughing at the fact they were gunna fool the world with some silly book.

Who really knows if Jesus existed. And if he did- where is the proof he did all these fantastic amazing things- besides accounts from ancient people...........in the bible.

Basically- THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER WITH RELIGION! A book isn't proof!! A book is far from proof. I could write a book saying i flew a damn donkey to hong kong last night and photo shop a picture and it'd technically be just as authenticate. Why is that? COS THERE AINT NO PROOF!

The bible may say there will be great wars- but shit there have been wars since the beginning of time- so that's no surprise. Everything the bible says is known already, and has been known. About love, about life about whatever. The only difference is its saying- its my way or the high way. Stick with me or go to hell.

You are all flying on blind faith. But its quite obvious that to this religion- there has hardly ever been any proof. its all paintings, ancient books & relics. And with that- it could all be fraudulent.

So with my stupid agnostic mind- i find science may have more answers. however i know it dosn't have answers for what im wondering.

Reincarnation, ghosts and countless other "mysteries" can be answered with a question we learned the answer to in elementary school: Energy never dissipates, it just changes form.

I dont remember learning that in elementary school..

Lol but the bible could be some stupid book full of hogswash. for all we know a bunch of guys coulda been sitting round a campfire laughing at the fact they were gunna fool the world with some silly book.

Who really knows if Jesus existed. And if he did- where is the proof he did all these fantastic amazing things- besides accounts from ancient people...........in the bible.

Basically- THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER WITH RELIGION! A book isn't proof!! A book is far from proof. I could write a book saying i flew a damn donkey to hong kong last night and photo shop a picture and it'd technically be just as authenticate. Why is that? COS THERE AINT NO PROOF!

The bible may say there will be great wars- but shit there have been wars since the beginning of time- so that's no surprise. Everything the bible says is known already, and has been known. About love, about life about whatever. The only difference is its saying- its my way or the high way. Stick with me or go to hell.

You are all flying on blind faith. But its quite obvious that to this religion- there has hardly ever been any proof. its all paintings, ancient books & relics. And with that- it could all be fraudulent.

So with my stupid agnostic mind- i find science may have more answers. however i know it dosn't have answers for what im wondering.

It seems you've forgotten the basic rule of science here.. If you can't PROVE there isn't a God, then it's still a possibility. All we have is circumstantial evidence, and it's VERY convincing mind you, but circumstantial. Science is a product of the human mind, the same minds who wrote the bible. Any flaws you can point out in the bible can be pointed out in science, even if we don't fully understand the scale with which we're grading it.

Now, I'm a firm believer that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of tales; verbal stories passed down from generation to generation (and I have human proof to back this up) and finally written down on papyrus once the ability to do so was learned. And just like any verbal story passed from one person to the next, embelishment takes the place of fact.

I learned that energy never dissipates but changes form in 6th grade. Regular, non-honor, non-advanced Earth Science.

I leargrade. Regular, non-honor, non-advanced Earth ned that energy never dissipates but changes form in 6th Science

Yep, it's the first law of thermodynamics :) Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another...uh oh my :loser side just popped out :giggle

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

Well said.

I believe both Creation and Evolution are theories. Neither can be absolutely scientifically proven therefore b/c of my faith I believe in Creation.
I do believe science and God go together. I believe He's the ultimate Creator and that He has a hand in everything good, which includes science :)

Yep, it's the first law of thermodynamics :) Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another...uh oh my :loser side just popped out :giggle

Wow.

How I EVER got "Dissipates" confused with "Destroyed" is a testament to how tired I really am. That's what I MEANT to say in my brain, but somehow typed the other. Nice catch! I feel exponentially dumber now.

Lol but the bible could be some stupid book full of hogswash. for all we know a bunch of guys coulda been sitting round a campfire laughing at the fact they were gunna fool the world with some silly book.

Who really knows if Jesus existed. And if he did- where is the proof he did all these fantastic amazing things- besides accounts from ancient people...........in the bible.

Basically- THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER WITH RELIGION! A book isn't proof!! A book is far from proof. I could write a book saying i flew a damn donkey to hong kong last night and photo shop a picture and it'd technically be just as authenticate. Why is that? COS THERE AINT NO PROOF!

The bible may say there will be great wars- but shit there have been wars since the beginning of time- so that's no surprise. Everything the bible says is known already, and has been known. About love, about life about whatever. The only difference is its saying- its my way or the high way. Stick with me or go to hell.

You are all flying on blind faith. But its quite obvious that to this religion- there has hardly ever been any proof. its all paintings, ancient books & relics. And with that- it could all be fraudulent.

So with my stupid agnostic mind- i find science may have more answers. however i know it dosn't have answers for what im wondering.



this thinking is precisely why im not gonna say anything else on this topic. I know what i believe is to be the truth and thats good enough for me. If you want to think its all hogwash thats ok by me. One thing I know is one day we will all find out in the end whats the real truth. If i were to say anything else on this subject it would be a very passionate thing. so thats why im not saying anything else. I know in my heart what i believe and I believe in God and in Jesus and in the Bible which is the inspired word of God and there is proof that the bible is true. thats what i believe.

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.

Actually, I disagree with this statement as well. Religion and Science DO go hand in hand - they're one and the same. Science is the "new" religion. It's ideals, principles and level of faith are identical.

Science texts rely on the reader's ability to "see" things in a "logical" manner. These texts have pushed technology and concept far beyond what we dreamed possible.

Religous texts rely on the reader's ability to "see" things in a "faith-required" manner. These texts have pushed humanity and civilization far beyond what we had dreamed possible.

I can PROVE there was a Great Flood, and I can PROVE how this Great Flood story was embelished.

I have faith in my logic - question EVERYTHING. I rarely make a statement of absolute TRUTH, merely because the truth is a slippery sucker. Look up the phrase "Mandlebrot Set" in Google, and you'll find that, even with science, some things just don't add up. This concept has proven that everything we know is merely an illusion that has become accepted as truth.

And down the rabbit hole we go....

How I EVER got "Dissipates" confused with "Destroyed" is a testament to how tired I really am. That's what I MEANT to say in my brain, but somehow typed the other. Nice catch! I feel exponentially dumber now.

lol, don't feel bad, I took physics last year and somehow of all the crap I had to learn that's what stuck :lmao

Can I ask those that do not believe in any kind of evolution to explain what is or what happened to the bones of humans found to be 3 million years old? Lucy or Lucy's child is what they like to call them. I'm curious.

I personally don't believe anything is that old. I am a young earth person what can I say. :hehe I believe the earth is at it's oldest 10,000 years. I don't think anyone can say exactly how old the earth is; I've heard aruguments on both sides.

This is site (faith based) that I started digging into when I had a lot of questions. They've really answered alot of my questions that I've had since I was a child. http://www.answersingenesis.org Obviously as I said, it is faith based so if you don't believe in that or have an open mind towards it this site won't be for you ;)

If I'm wrong in what I believe, which I don't think I am, I'll take my chances. No other "religion" or "faith" has had anything better to offer me. When I'm not walking my faith, my life sucks.

I think God uses the scientific facts that humans have discovered to prove that he does exist.

Most people and myself included with our human minds cannot even begin to comprehend that God has never had a beginning. He has always been. To me thats hard to imagine since most of us do not fully understand the concept of eternity and that from what we believe everything has a beginning everything and everyone but God.

:yes :yes :yes

I think the other thing about God is knowing, by faith of course, that He has a bigger picture. We don't always get things our way. Life can be rough at times but Christ never promised Christians an easy time, matter of fact he said it'd be tough on those who claim their faith.

The thing about this topic as a debate is that noone can win it. I don't really think that I can contribute much else to it - and I think I mentioned on page one or two that I wasn't even here to debate :lol What happened??

All I can do is tell you what works for me. God works for me...the choice is mine - I choose faith...not because it's easy, but because I know it's right. Not in my head...not from logic...but from all that I've experienced and been through in my life. I know God is awake, and that's why I sleep in peace.

Except of course when I'm plagued with nightmares of owing Rach $20,000 for groceries.

Enjoy the thread - I'm off to bed. Happy trails :)

Except of course when I'm plagued with nightmares of owing Rach $20,000 for groceries.


Maybe if you keep dreaming it, God will make it happen! :devil :lol

Ok.. food for thought.

Earth- approx. 4.55 billion years old.

Dinosaurs - existed approx. 230 - 60 million years ago

Human (homo sapien) like remains have been found dated back from 10 million years ago.

How long has life existed on earth? The oldest known fossils are approximately 3.5 billion years old

Paganism- 1st religion on earth. formed roughly 2000 years before the beginning of christianity.

Christ- born apparently 2000 years ago.

I could go on but you get my point there.

Ok - SO!

Paganism was the first religion ever to be on earth. BEFORE CHRISTIANITY! Now Paganism has nothing to do with the devil. Infact its completely the opposite. Pagans worshipped Earth, life, Goddess & Women. Women were the devine goddess. They gave birth to new life, so they were worshipped. Men worshipped women. And they all worshipped the Earth- their home. They lived in peace and they gave blessings to things like agriculture, life, animals & the universe. Ofcourse they had sex like there was no tomorrow. But before Christianity- sex was not a sin. It was something beautiful, not something to be ashamed of. Sex gave life- and that is what paganism is all about.

So then Christianity comes in. MALE DOMINATED. Male God, Male offspring, Male prophets, SEX IS A SIN, worshipping anything else but CHRIST & GOD was pure evil, coming straight from the devil. ONCE again.. MALE. It's completely different to Paganism. Paganism = Devine GodDESS. Christianity = MALE GOD. So the Church comes in with a book- a book that "proves" what they are trying to get to the world. All of a sudden, Paganism is banished. If you didn't join the Church- you were killed. Burnt to the stake etc. So ofcourse, the loyal pagans went underground so they wouldn't be killed. Secret meetings, etc. A "cult".. "devil worshippers".

My point is- Pagans were there before God. They were the true religion of the time until God was unleashed. People were killed if they wern't believers. Thats not very god like is it? No ofcourse not! They had to kill the ones who didn't believe because God had to over power any other belief of all time. Which it did.

If God is real- explain why the bible contradicts itself many times over. One part is saying once you die- you get judged and either go to heaven or hell. The next its saying your going to die and then be in a "resting period" until the rest of the souls can join.. i believe that is in the book of Revelations. How can Adam & Eve have existed if life was found way before that time? How can God have made the universe- when no one made God?! Where did god come from? Did he have his own big bang and just pop up? What would exist if there were no universe?

I could go on for so long. This is topic is my most passionate. I have done timeless amounts of research. I am agnostic- and I do wish i wasn't for the simple reason i would have guidance. But i don't. I know that spirits exist (thatd contradict the bible yet again)- i have encountered them myself. But i also know that when a evil entity is around- all you need to do is quote a bible verse and it goes away. I contradict myself a million times just like the rest of the world does. We have no REAL proof on anything. I believe what i see- and ive seen alot on both sides. I believe science, i believe in evolution, and i believe that everyone has a right to believe what they wish. So for the christians, jews, etc out there, Kudos to you for having faith in something that helps you everyday.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Paganism was the first religion ever to be on earth. BEFORE CHRISTIANITY! Now Paganism has nothing to do with the devil. Infact its completely the opposite. Pagans worshipped Earth, life, Goddess & Women. Women were the devine goddess. They gave birth to new life, so they were worshipped. Men worshipped women. And they all worshipped the Earth- their home. They lived in peace and they gave blessings to things like agriculture, life, animals & the universe. Ofcourse they had sex like there was no tomorrow. But before Christianity- sex was not a sin. It was something beautiful, not something to be ashamed of. Sex gave life- and that is what paganism is all about.

Before we found out the earth was round, many believed it was flat. Just because it was first doesn't make it "right". Even IN Christianity, sex isn't a sin. Even the Catholics, who are much more wise to the human condition than we give them credit for, understood the vital importance of having children. Who would willingly join a religion that specifically forbade you from having children, thus creating NEW followers? (Not to mention the simple term "MISSIONARY-style"). I can't begin to express how vital carrying on the family name was (and is) to the religious. Only certain people in the Catholic church CHOSE a life of celibacy. Freed of mortal desire, their connection with the divine was presumably clearer.


So then Christianity comes in. MALE DOMINATED. Male God, Male offspring, Male prophets, SEX IS A SIN, worshipping anything else but CHRIST & GOD was pure evil, coming straight from the devil. ONCE again.. MALE. It's completely different to Paganism. Paganism = Devine GodDESS. Christianity = MALE GOD. So the Church comes in with a book- a book that "proves" what they are trying to get to the world. All of a sudden, Paganism is banished. If you didn't join the Church- you were killed. Burnt to the stake etc. So ofcourse, the loyal pagans went underground so they wouldn't be killed. Secret meetings, etc. A "cult".. "devil worshippers".

The Pagan worshippers were driven into exile primarily because they weren't willing to die for their cause as readily as a Christian. The Male/Female argument is heresay and appeals only to those willing to delve into sexist debates. To Christianities credit, you seem willing to "burn people at the stake" because they don't agree with your opinion, proverbially, of course. I don't see how your current mindset isn't inline with hard-lined Christians.


My point is- Pagans were there before God. They were the true religion of the time until God was unleashed. People were killed if they wern't believers. Thats not very god like is it? No ofcourse not! They had to kill the ones who didn't believe because God had to over power any other belief of all time. Which it did.

Christianity teaches that there is one and only has ever been one God. Because the Pagans chose to call God "Mother Earth", does that change the fact that it could have very well been the SAME God? The oceans were full of water before we gave it a name. Does that mean we "invented" oceans?

God is and was, if he exists, a VERY vindictive person. Surely you've read the story of Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job#Narrative), Noah (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Courses/HebBib/Resources/noah_all.html) and any other unfortunate soul who met an angel. He wouldn't just a person right out. He'd kill your entire family, your families blood line, your livlihood and make you suffer through the entire process. There is a purity that can be derived through pain. Many can argue that this process is similar to brainwashing, and I'd be hard pressed to disprove them (punishing the masses for the actions of a few, or vice versa).


If God is real- explain why the bible contradicts itself many times over. One part is saying once you die- you get judged and either go to heaven or hell. The next its saying your going to die and then be in a "resting period" until the rest of the souls can join.. i believe that is in the book of Revelations. How can Adam & Eve have existed if life was found way before that time? How can God have made the universe- when no one made God?! Where did god come from? Did he have his own big bang and just pop up? What would exist if there were no universe?

This particular contradiction, in regards to purgatory, was simply an addendum added by the church, in the eyes of some fundamentalists (http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc111b.htm). The Old Testament was almost IMPOSSIBLE to live by, since ANY sin was punishable by death on a massive scale. The Catholic church "found" more information from ancient texts that covered Purgatory - a holding area for ALL souls to be purified before entering heaven. This gave people a means of expressing regrets for their sins and still maintain their hope of going to heaven. It was a publicity stunt that worked so very well, and I have NO idea which book it's in. (This is because it's not in the book - it's a Catholic Doctrine. Purgatory was created by man and not mentioned in the bible as it was written.)

The "Who made God?" debate can go on for as long as you can ask that question. We'll probably never know. For all intents and purposes, this question is irrelevant. The faithful believe he simply "IS", the logical believe is awaiting confirmation. Even you stated, through scientific text, that man hasn't been on this planet very long. We've only had television for about 60 years or so... we simply haven't been here long enough to have the technology to glimpse into the inner workings of Space. We know about 5% of how the galaxy works. 5%. We know next to NOTHING past Jupiter. We don't even know what's on our ocean floors. We're still infants.

So for the christians, jews, etc out there, Kudos to you for having faith in something that helps you everyday.

Do you really NEED anything else? Does it matter if the unquenchable drive for finding answers through one book or the other is what keeps us going every day? You are extremely passionate about this, and it seems to be working against you here... I'd love to hear more of your side, but it seems you're paraphrasing your thoughts too much (I know it would take a novel to flesh all of it out,) but we need more than a couple sentences to see where you're coming from!

Religion and science don't go hand in hand because there is nothing scientific about faith. It's not tangible, it can't be proven or reasoned, and faith is what makes religion what it is. Believing in that which we can not see.

I don't believe that we came from Monkeys, no :giggle I believe that God created us in his own image just as the book of Genesis states. I believe that Adam and Eve walked the earth, and believe in Noah and the ark - and I believe in God, the devil, and heaven and hell. Faith has carried me through some of the darkest days in my life, it's been the only thing holding me up at certain times of my life. I can't explain WHY I believe, or WHY I have faith, except that I know God is real, because I feel Him every day.


Nicely said. :P

I don't agree with you belive in what you were raised with. My family is Catholic and I was raised beliving on praying to images and to the mother of God. I was raised on being confess through the praist. I don't think I have to do any of that to have God in my life. My faith and love to the Lord is the biggest thing I could ever have in my life. Why would I not belive in what gives me the biggest happiness in my life. What is scientist about my grandpa being diagnostic with Cancer and the doctor telling him he was going to live for not more than 2 years when that was over 15 years ago?? Could you tell me what does the sciense has to do with the procreation of life and birth of a baby??? I don't think science was there when I was created, only my parents and God.

Do you really NEED anything else?

Yes- i need proof

What i wrote earlier about this religion being male dominated. Its completely true. Perhaps it dosn't add up to your theory- however.. when you think about it- the battle of the sexes theory dosn't seem that far off now does it? Paganism was about the female- we were the right hand not the left. We got worshipped- so then the church comes in and its male dominated.

This whole religion with God wasn't even exisiting until like 2000 years AFTER the beginning of Christianity. But your right- Men did not want to risk their lives so they basically just converted. And who didn't, they killed.

_this part is editted but in later posts i wrote what i meant.

To Christianities credit, you seem willing to "burn people at the stake" because they don't agree with your opinion, proverbially, of course. I don't see how your current mindset isn't inline with hard-lined Christians.

Lol are you joking about this one? I am reading absolutely everybody's statements here. And every single one of them has something interesting to think about. Its a debate. Obviously im not going to switch sides. So im not going to be agreeing. If you read the bottom of my first post- you would see i have no problem with faith. Im agnostic and some days i feel atheist. But im agnostic- i aint gunna burn no one on the stake for their opinions. Infact the only post that has made me raise my eyebrow was yours.

Yes- i need proof

What i wrote earlier about this religion being male dominated. Its completely true. Perhaps it dosn't add up to your theory- however.. when you think about it- the battle of the sexes theory dosn't seem that far off now does it? Paganism was about the female- we were the right hand not the left. We got worshipped- so then the church comes in and its male dominated.

This whole religion with God wasn't even exisiting until like 2000 years AFTER the beginning of Christianity. But your right- Men did not want to risk their lives so they basically just converted. And who didn't, they killed.

As for this whole energy bs that scientists say exist- NO i don't believe that for one second. It is one thing seeing a spirit pass you (that could indeed just be remaining energy).. but when you see it do things like its ALIVE it completely passes out that theory. Obviously science doesn't have the answers for this. And neither the bible.



you have a right to your opinion but don't use the shortened version of bullshit. if it is what some people believe its right to them.

you have a right to your opinion but don't use the shortened version of bullshit. if it is what some people believe its right to them.

Have i said any different in any of my posts? No, all i am doing is putting what i believe into text. Now i havn't banged anyone for their faith. AS I SAID BEFORE- if you have faith then good on you for having some guidance!!!

As for the energy signatures left behind (the science version of paranormal)- i believe that is bullshit. That would definately explain the case if it was just energy that was left and it basically floated around earth.. but that's not it. Spirits are alive, even though they are dead. They do things, they move things, they do many things- they don't merely just float around as an energy souce of what they once were.

Honestly i don't see why you howled me down for this one? If you had read all of my posts, and there are quite a few in here- i have either contradicted myself (because i am not exactly sure on what i believe) or i have actually said everyone is entitled to their opinions, this is just mine. I am not calling anyone with faith stupid or anything else.

spirits are touchy subject for me and just using bullshit in any form kind of bugged me. sorry

That's fine. Do you mean the word bullshit? or my theory is bullshit?! Either way its inconclusive. From experience all i know is that Spirits just don't merely exist. They arn't just energy floating around. It's MUCH MUCH more then that. Ouji boards can explain that in itself.

just the word

Lol yeah that was fine- i meant it metaphorically. I was rushing to go downstairs and watch a 2 hr episode of Bones *yay* - and i couldn't think of the word (just woke up) so yeah bs just replaced it. I think i meant signatures. I dunno now. Lol

Essentially what it all boils down to is what YOU believe in. Period. Unless you have passed away you do not know. As far as spirits go..I FIRMLY believe in them....BUT...They are masses of energy. Thats why whenever you watch ghost hunting shows they use EMF detectors. Looking for elctromagntic fields. Because they give off a ton of energy. So to say the energy theory is BS isn't really fair. Even if you believe in spirits.

I have gotten into this debate (spirits and such) with my hubby NUMEROUS times. And truthfully I think we're both right. Yes they may be masses of energy but I still believe they are spirits..Ghosts...etc. They just have energy fields around them because it takes energy to manifest.

And again. as far as energy goes. It CAN be mistaken for hauntings. I have seen on ghost hunters (sheesh I love that show :giggle) where they get all excited because they got a HIGH EMF reading. Turns out it was like a fuse box with too much crap in it or something that can make things seem to happen. So in those cases it isn't a spirit. But energy itself. Where you also have times they get high readings and it IS a spirit.

So to be fair..There is some truth to the energy explaination. Afterall...Any ghost hunter or believe in the world will tell you that there will be very very high energy readings when a spirit is present...

Kristi i didn't mean it like bullshit- i could have had stuff and it would have meant the same thing to me. i jus abbreviated too much lol.

i totally agree with what you said. they are energy of some sort- but i dont believe that its the whole explanation. like u read theories about poltergeists etc. It just dosn't make sense.

I think the different between science and faith here is those that scientists can SEE and touch things they are saying to be "true". Yes, there are many theories out there that are scientific faith, but there is a lot that is true. Faith is the beginning to most scientific discoveries - When the belief was that the Earth was flat, how did that first person take the leap and prove it wrong? Not by going into space and looking at it. The difference between religious faith and science faith is that often times, science can be proven to be true.

Also, why is everyone with absolute religious faith not wanting to debate? I'm not trying to change your mind and that shouldn't be an issue anyway. I'm very passionate about my beliefs too.

Still no one has answered my question on explaining the existence of "Lucy" and 3 million year old upright homonids? What is "wrong" about the science there - just that it contradicts with the Bible? I'm not asking to be a smartass, I just am really curious what those with unwavering faith in Genesis can explain that?

I am strong in my faith, therefore it has no bearing on my life if the next guy believes or not. I would hope that the next guy could understand the power of faith and what it can do for him/her internally - I really wish that the next guy could feel the enormous weight that is lifted off of his/her shoulders when he/she has a crisis and really and truly lets go and gives it up to God. It's a powerful thing...and I just wish that the next guy could feel that kind of peace. But without faith - the next guy will never know.

I think this is one of the things (besides the aforementioned "burn in hell" comment someone mentioned) that annoys me about debating with those strong in their religious faith. Why is it that because I don't believe the Bible word for word, I can't feel peace in a crisis? How do you know what comforts me? Because I doubt that Jesus actually fed a bunch of people on 2 loaves of bread (or whatever the story) or that Noah actually built a boat with 2 of each animal and was the ONLY person to survive a flood in the WHOLE world, I can't feel peace? How do Buddhists do it? Nirvana is their ultimate goal - Nirvana is akin to Heaven where the trials and tribulations of the world have no effect. But they don't reach that through God - it's through their own mind and spirit. Don't feel sorry for me - I can create peace in my own spirit.

Becca - this isn't a diatribe against you, I just see this a lot from all religious points of view and this is why people who aren't blind believers get annoyed with the religous side - comments like that (and the "you're going to burn in hell" one).

I think the different between science and faith here is those that scientists can SEE and touch things they are saying to be "true". Yes, there are many theories out there that are scientific faith, but there is a lot that is true. Faith is the beginning to most scientific discoveries - When the belief was that the Earth was flat, how did that first person take the leap and prove it wrong? Not by going into space and looking at it. The difference between religious faith and science faith is that often times, science can be proven to be true.

Also, why is everyone with absolute religious faith not wanting to debate? I'm not trying to change your mind and that shouldn't be an issue anyway. I'm very passionate about my beliefs too.

Still no one has answered my question on explaining the existence of "Lucy" and 3 million year old upright homonids? What is "wrong" about the science there - just that it contradicts with the Bible? I'm not asking to be a smartass, I just am really curious what those with unwavering faith in Genesis can explain that?


Absolutely! I also wonder why many devout christians arn't wanting to get into the debate. Obviously we are all going to bring up strong points that are indeed going to make you think- but if your devout- ur not going to change your mind.. and were not trying to change minds.

I would like "God's" explanation on this hominid that was found to be around 3 million years old- i would also like "gods" explanation on dinosaurs, and the earths age. I would also like gods explanation on why a human fetus is almost the same as a fishes fetus- except that we grow ears and they grow gills..and then ofcourse we develop into humans. The fetus of a fish and the fetus of a human have mannnnnny similiar characteristics. Hmm i would love to hear anyone speaking on gods behalf .

Its all just so interesting to me. Ah im debating on getting dh into this. But knowing him- he will get into the Rapture and stuff and the thread will be completely hi- jacked.

Just wanted to add before people think I'm horrible :giggle that I do believe that faith in anything is a great thing. If you can have peace in your decisions and yourself because of whatever you believe in that is great. Shaky - you mentioned your grandfather's cancer. I believe in the power of faith, but I see it more scientifically. Positivity breeds positive actions in yourself and those around you. If faith in God and religion gives you that power to be positive and have a belief in yourself than that is great for you.

I would also like gods explanation on why a human fetus is exactly the same as a fishes fetus- except that we grow ears and they grow gills. Hmm i would love to hear anyone speaking on gods behalf .



My grandpa had gills and ears. :giggle No joke!

Wow no joke?! What was he told was the reason for that??!

I think this is one of the things (besides the aforementioned "burn in hell" comment someone mentioned) that annoys me about debating with those strong in their religious faith. Why is it that because I don't believe the Bible word for word, I can't feel peace in a crisis? How do you know what comforts me? Because I doubt that Jesus actually fed a bunch of people on 2 loaves of bread (or whatever the story) or that Noah actually built a boat with 2 of each animal and was the ONLY person to survive a flood in the WHOLE world, I can't feel peace? How do Buddhists do it? Nirvana is their ultimate goal - Nirvana is akin to Heaven where the trials and tribulations of the world have no effect. But they don't reach that through God - it's through their own mind and spirit. Don't feel sorry for me - I can create peace in my own spirit.

Becca - this isn't a diatribe against you, I just see this a lot from all religious points of view and this is why people who aren't blind believers get annoyed with the religous side - comments like that (and the "you're going to burn in hell" one).


I know it's not :)

I am not saying that you can't feel peace. I am merely saying that I don't personally feel that you have the ability to feel the same kind of peace. Until you know how it feels, you'll never know how it feels.

It sounds so obvious...but I'm not trying to be simplistic. You have doubts about Jesus, Noah, the bible...that's perfectly natural, and that's you. Me, I don't have those doubts because I know that the bible is truth. It's not something I can explain, it's really not. It's not something I can put into words and suddenly people will just "get it". I sincerely wish it was...but then if it was that easy, no one would ever doubt the word of God or the entity Himself. If it was that easy, faith in God would not be what it is. If it was that easy, faith itself would be obsolete.

They didn't know. :shrug They found it when they did surgery to remove part of his thyroid. He was in the Navy too for 20 years. :giggle He like water....

I know it's not :)

I am not saying that you can't feel peace. I am merely saying that I don't personally feel that you have the ability to feel the same kind of peace. Until you know how it feels, you'll never know how it feels.

It sounds so obvious...but I'm not trying to be simplistic. You have doubts about Jesus, Noah, the bible...that's perfectly natural, and that's you. Me, I don't have those doubts because I know that the bible is truth. It's not something I can explain, it's really not. It's not something I can put into words and suddenly people will just "get it". I sincerely wish it was...but then if it was that easy, no one would ever doubt the word of God or the entity Himself. If it was that easy, faith in God would not be what it is. If it was that easy, faith itself would be obsolete.

So because you absolutely believe in the Bible do you believe that the scientists that unearth hominids from millions of years ago are just wrong? Yes, I'm still on that.

I get faith. I get that I can't understand what it's like to believe the Bible to be true. I also get we can't feel the same kind of peace, but it doesn't mean it's any less effective or that I should be pitied because I believe I control my own destiny. You will never know how it feels to believe that, but I don't feel sorry for you because you believe in something that I believe causes you to be blind. I'm happy for you that you have found something to get you through the hard times. All I ask is the same in return. :)

I don't pity you or anyone else that doesn't share my beliefs. Why would you think that? Do you think that because I said your beliefs may cause me to pray for you that I pity you? I don't pray for anyone out of pity, just to be clear.

I also don't believe that scientists are wrong in regards to homonids from millions of years ago. I may question the carbon dating, but I don't know enough about it. This is an interesting topic though, because now we're shifting focus to the concept of time as we know it, and that's an entirely different can of worms. I am one of those people that questions the concept that time is linear. But I don't really want to go there because I have no clue how to put my thoughts on that into clear words. I have to have clear thoughts in order to have clear words and in this case, eh...no dice. :lol

I think the concept of time is a little complicated for this or any conversation... :) But isn't the concept of linear time Christian/Jewish since there was a clear beginning? The Buddhists are the ones that believe in circular time. And well then there is spacetime, but see above....

But is there really a clear beginning? "In the beginning was the word. And the word was of God and the word was God..." That can really be interpreted a number of ways. One could say that it could be interpreted in a literal sense of the word 'beginning'. OR, one could also say that it could be interpreted to mean that God has simply always been here... :dunno I'm not exactly an expert LOL

I have to have clear thoughts in order to have clear words and in this case, eh...no dice.

Thats why i always sound jumbled. I could never be an author lol.
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I understand exactly what you are saying potatocup.

My mind can't wrap around the fact that there is some big guy above us controlling what happens. When we die, why the sky is blue, why we get sick etc. I can't wrap my mind around the bible. I can't wrap my mind around anything to do with God & religion.

I don't think that the time line sticks when it comes to Christism. Scientists have a much more accurate- or atleast believable explanation to things. Faith is a wonderful thing.

Religion is bitter sweet.

I guess it doesn't say God created time, I was just under the impression that the belief was God was outside time, which would mean time started when God started the world. But, scientifically time is relative to the observer so maybe time is moving at different speeds but with the same measurement. So maybe 3 million years to a scientist is 10,000 or whatever to a religious person. :giggle that made NO sense.

:giggle

Nonono...a religious person doesn't view time differently than a scientist. What I'm saying is...time is what it is - but we don't really KNOW what it is!

And you're right - it didn't make any sense - but nothing does. :D

Lol. Too right.

I'll agree with your there, who knows what time is? Anyone will get a headache thinking about it....

Well if you go make a sun dial u will find out :P

She said "Who knows what time is..." Not "Who knows what time it is" :roflmao

Can I just say that I think it's really cool that we can all discuss this without getting pissy and irritated and bitchy with each other? I'm SOOOOO not going to insert a grouphug smiley here, but I just think it's great that we can debate as adults :D

Oh whoops! Haha i read it wrong. Well then i dunno either!

Yeah i'd rather us state our beliefs without having to make WW3.

I spose thats why wars start- kinda like a debate that just gets outta hand.

Ok so I haven't read all 7 pages of this, but just wondering....has anyone read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown? Its an awsome book that is based on this very subject :)
And on this subject I don't really have a strong opinion either way, I'm pretty neutral, I'm not religious but it doesn't mean I don't believe in higher powers so that's pretty much that, LOL.

No hun, i havn't. I bought it for DH so i will read it when i see him next. Im waiting impatiently though so i may just buy the book again.

...has anyone read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown? Its an awsome book that is based on this very subject :)



yes, i have and it was a good book. I've been trying to read a book called "God and the New Physics" which is written by a physicist who tries to see how they are interrelated. I don't think the book is that well written plus it is a deep subject which is probably why I'm having trouble getting through it.


Can I just say that I think it's really cool that we can all discuss this without getting pissy and irritated and bitchy with each other? I'm SOOOOO not going to insert a grouphug smiley here, but I just think it's great that we can debate as adults

i agree, it is good to feel like an adult. :)

I haven't read either of the popular Dan Brown books. No real reason, just haven't :dunno I wanted to see the DaVinci Code but we never really get a date night :lol

The DaVinci Code is my favourite book! Oh its sooooo good!!!!!!

It delves into religion quite far. Paganism, the bloodline of Christ, etc etc.

It's extremely interesting.

I believe in evolution to a point. Sure living things (plants and animals) change over time. Everything adapts. Do I believe humans came from monkeys, NO! Do I believe humans came from ameoba, NO! I believe in creation story of Genesis. Yes I think we have changed some since then. We are taller for one. But I think things like our appendix and tonsills used to be good for something but we evolved and no longer needed them and now they are useless organs.

and I agree with Becca, nothing anyone says is going to piss me off, but it might make me pray for you :D
I agree with you 100%:D

I don't believe we came from monkeys either!! I simply believe we evolved from a more primitive man into what we are today.

People that argue that there wouldn't still be monkeys on earth if we evolved from them, only need to take a look at the ocean and it's many forms. Compare a minnow to a dolphin and the intelligence level!

Like I said I don't believe that we came from any form of a monkey but rather a whole different species.....sort of like the dolphin/minnow comparison. both live in the water and resemble a fish but the comparison stops there:yes

Nobody answered the incest question.........I guess in the name of getting humanity going, god overlooked that shameful sin:scared

Yes- i need proof

What i wrote earlier about this religion being male dominated. Its completely true. Perhaps it dosn't add up to your theory- however.. when you think about it- the battle of the sexes theory dosn't seem that far off now does it? Paganism was about the female- we were the right hand not the left. We got worshipped- so then the church comes in and its male dominated.

This whole religion with God wasn't even exisiting until like 2000 years AFTER the beginning of Christianity. But your right- Men did not want to risk their lives so they basically just converted. And who didn't, they killed.

_this part is editted but in later posts i wrote what i meant.

Ok, here we go!

You said: "Kudos to you for having faith in something that helps you everyday," to which I responded "Do you NEED anything else?" If you read some Science book every night before you go to bed and wake up with a sense of purpose and possible fulfilment, do you NEED anything else?

Your "completely true" male dominance argument is purely heresay. To use your words, "prove it". This isn't a scientific debate, it's kind of like pulling the "race" card.

And again, like I said, the Pagans WORSHIPPED. What they worshipped was a higher power than themselves, which they just happened to call Mother Earth, the Sun, or a spirit deity. Because Christians gave this force the name of "God" doesn't mean either of them were right, or wrong. It's just a name for something people can't comprehend.

I said what i believed. I NEVER SAID THERE WAS ANY FACT TO IT! And how can i prove a damn thing when nothing is proven?! If it was - we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we.

Pagans worshipped all that higher stuff but they also worshipped the divine goddess- maybe you should read a book to find that out. Wicca is paganism- but a different strand of it. And even with it being alot more modern- it still has the basic concepts.. but don't try and confuse true paganism with Wicca- they may be the same branch but they are also very different. True paganism worshipped women, BECAUSE they were the ones who gave birth to a new life.

And as i said before- for those who have faith in god- good on them. And also like i said- i need proof on the whole religious thing. Do i have much proof to my theory on the battle of the sexes? No i dont, but i guess you could call that blind faith huh.

Note- I emphasize women alot when it comes to paganism because from what i know about religion- women arn't as equal in the whole god, jesus scenario. Note this- i realise that pagans worshipped alot more then women, but they sure as hell worshipped women more then any bible ever has.

Im really tired right now. I am saying this cos i really don't wanna get grumpy with anyone. Im not going to get off topic by talking about neo paganism, ancient drudism, or anything else cos i will just go on forever.

Have a good night Kristi's Hatetank. Ill continue this when i have slept some.

That's fine. Do you mean the word bullshit? or my theory is bullshit?! Either way its inconclusive. From experience all i know is that Spirits just don't merely exist. They arn't just energy floating around. It's MUCH MUCH more then that. Ouji boards can explain that in itself.

If a monkey can use technology to use a third, robotic arm as naturally as it's own, (which it apparently can (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4262)) then that is proof enough to rule out a Ouija board, which is has been proven to be nothing more than an experiment in the Ideometer effect. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija#Scientific_approach)

Now, I'm shocked. There is nothing MORE faith-based than believing in spirits. Spirits are at the core of every major, if not all, religions. Everyone has seen something in their life they can't explain, and I'm not excluded. But when all of my friends were petrified of this little puddle in the woods because of a "giant monster" in it, I went out and caught the 17 pound catfish in a puddle no bigger than a compact car and only 3 inches deep. What you SEE and what it IS are rarely the same thing.

I said what i believed. I NEVER SAID THERE WAS ANY FACT TO IT! And how can i prove a damn thing when nothing is proven?! If it was - we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we.

Pagans worshipped all that higher stuff but they also worshipped the divine goddess- maybe you should read a book to find that out. Wicca is paganism- but a different strand of it. And even with it being alot more modern- it still has the basic concepts.. but don't try and confuse true paganism with Wicca- they may be the same branch but they are also very different. True paganism worshipped women, BECAUSE they were the ones who gave birth to a new life.

And as i said before- for those who have faith in god- good on them. And also like i said- i need proof on the whole religious thing. Do i have much proof to my theory on the battle of the sexes? No i dont, but i guess you could call that blind faith huh.

Note- I emphasize women alot when it comes to paganism because from what i know about religion- women arn't as equal in the whole god, jesus scenario. Note this- i realise that pagans worshipped alot more then women, but they sure as hell worshipped women more then any bible ever has.

This isn't from one of my normal trusted sites, since I've never really had a reason to do more research on Pagan worship, but it seems, according to this writer, (http://www.indiana.edu/~earthrel/paganfaq.html) that my understanding is accurate - Paganists worship the Earth, and women were reverred as vessels of life, therefore closely interconnected to the earth. Women weren't worshipped in so much as they were a "connection" to the ultimate Giver of Life. Wicca, on the other hand, (correct me if I'm wrong) is dominately female based, and a marriage of Paganism and Mysticism.

I will most certainly concur with your assessment of the male-dominant religion. Women's rights in religion were none to nil, and for huge portions of the world, they still are. I could go onto a very wide tangent, but I won't.

Not that this is relevant, but I do seem to see you making observations that require a certain amount of faith, so I know you fully understand the concept. You also say you can't prove your own beliefs, but demand proof from the bible... I'm wondering what kind of proof I would have to offer!

My family blood line draws right back to ancient druidism. So i know what im talking about when it comes to worshipping the females. My mother is a neo druid. I feel much more "at home" with that then with walking into a church and listening to a sermon. I can only say what i know- i have researched ancient paganism from before the church made their move. I believe in re-incarnation over heaven and hell. Ever opened up a book and felt like you are reading something you already knew, yet you had never acknowledged it before? Ever had deja vu? I think you know what i am getting at..

As for me wanting proof from the bible. Lol i don't really- i don't believe its worth anymore then that paper its printed on. Evolution may sound outrageously crazy to religious folk- but i think deep down everyone can admit scientists have given us more info to go on then any account from a bible page ever.

Christians go by what they have read from the bible. Yet they won't believe what a scientist says. Hmm does that mean when a doctor tells a christian they have cancer... they can't believe that because its came from a scientist? I think thats called picking and choosing.

But whatever floats their boat. If someone can feel good about loving something that is invisible and "hearsay"- then thats awesome for them! I think it really is! They don't have to be scared about dying because they already believe they know where they are going to. That im actually quite jealous of.

Also- before anyone says it. I don't have faith in paganism, nore any branch of it. I really wouldn't call that faith at all because its worshipping what you see. Instead of throwing a gum wrapper on the floor- you throw it in the bin. Why? Because thats what earth deserves- to live just an extra minute.

My family blood line draws right back to ancient druidism. So i know what im talking about when it comes to worshipping the females. My mother is a neo druid. I feel much more "at home" with that then with walking into a church and listening to a sermon. I can only say what i know- i have researched ancient paganism from before the church made their move. I believe in re-incarnation over heaven and hell. Ever opened up a book and felt like you are reading something you already knew, yet you had never acknowledged it before? Ever had deja vu? I think you know what i am getting at..

As for me wanting proof from the bible. Lol i don't really- i don't believe its worth anymore then that paper its printed on. Evolution may sound outrageously crazy to religious folk- but i think deep down everyone can admit scientists have given us more info to go on then any account from a bible page ever.

Christians go by what they have read from the bible. Yet they won't believe what a scientist says. Hmm does that mean when a doctor tells a christian they have cancer... they can't believe that because its came from a scientist? I think thats called picking and choosing.

But whatever floats their boat. If someone can feel good about loving something that is invisible and "hearsay"- then thats awesome for them! I think it really is! They don't have to be scared about dying because they already believe they know where they are going to. That im actually quite jealous of.

Also- before anyone says it. I don't have faith in paganism, nore any branch of it. I really wouldn't call that faith at all because its worshipping what you see. Instead of throwing a gum wrapper on the floor- you throw it in the bin. Why? Because thats what earth deserves- to live just an extra minute.

Your knowledge of a particular secular version of paganism may indeed be profound, but the general (read: non-judging) public have a different observation. I'll not delve any further into that subject unless I'm pulled in to it.

There is evidence that the bible truly is simply a collection of "folk stories" passed down by GENERATIONS of people, which was the only way to keep these stories from disappearing. By you writing it off as "worthless", you're turning your back on your very heritage! Even the Pagans have a version of Noah's flood (http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/general/ge-jvmj.htm) that is so disturbingly close to the Biblical story, one isn't left with much room for doubt to it's truth. As for that last sentence, I can honestly say that I've never rose to face the day without a glimmer of hope. No matter how futile mankind's existence IS, since biblically and scientifically we're all going to die, we wake up every day and do our best. Call it God, Boredom or a simple search you're not ready to give up yet... either way, we wake up each day.

Has ANYONE ever been diagnosed with cancer and just flat out believed it? If YOU were diagnosed with it, would you just say "Ahh, bummer.. Ok!"? You'd go through denial just like every other person on the planet. Not to mention the fact that it's been PROVEN that inoperable/incurable cancer has been "miraculously" cured (http://www.cancure.org/choiceoftherapy.htm) through alternative treatments, including FAITH.

If the earth were viewed as a living entity, then mankind would be a virus. To fight off the virus, the earth would attack it with everything it had: earthquakes, tornadoes, cancer, aids, ebola and even gravity. I don't think picking up a gum wrapper is going to make any amends for the devastating amount of damage we've done to our home in the name of science AND religion.

Lol but it all helps right? the more we pollute the earth, the more damage we are making. Every single little thing helps. And that was the smallest example i could think of lol.

As for noahs flood- blah - i havn't researched that at all. Infact i may do it now cos im now imagining a bunch of animals on a ship.

And as for anyone diagnosed with cancer ......... Nah i wouldn't believe it at first- denial would set in. But your splitting hairs, just like i am. A scientist discovered what this killer is and what happens etc. They gave it the damn name. etc. Cancer is a very real thing. So when we do get over our denial, are we to not believe it because the concluded research came from a scientist? Lol im so tired i dunno if your getting my stupid point. basically i was just being sarcastic. One can believe what a scientist has said in one scenario- yet one can't believe in another.

Wow what a hot topic!! Like the store, get it, hot topic, haha ok anyway...

I believe in evolution and I believe in God. I think the bible is a "Golden Book of Rules" sort of thing, like don't screw your neighbor's wife, don't go around envying everyone else's crap, don't kill someone, don't blah blah blah. I think the stories of the bible were supposed to EXPLAIN to us what happened when a bunch of horny greedy people go act out on all their desires.

So yeah, I believe in both, and a book I LOVE that works well with this point is Rock of Ages by Stephen J. Gould.

I don't believe in "God". I do believe in evolution, to an extent. I'm not saying this to be nasty or mean but I think most religion comes from being scared or lost in life. Religion gives answers to questions that couldn't otherwise be answered such as "what happens when we die?" and "why should I be a good person?" and "where did we come from" and "why are we here?". The Bible and "God" have "answers" to these questions and makes people feel good, in general... like they have a sense of being and purpose. I truly think that's the only real reason why religion exists :dunno I'm not saying people who have faith are lost in life. I'm just saying I think that's where religion roots from. People need answers and religion/faith provide them. Thinking that there is an all mighty God who watches over us and has great powers to work miracles makes people feel good and everyone wants to feel good. Faith :D I don't disagree with there being some sort of higher being or power of some shape or form, but I don't think it's the all mighty God that Christians believe in, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible or Noah or Adam and Eve. I don't have the answers to how we were created or what will happen when we die, but I don't think the answers are in the Bible.

I haven't read anyone else's responses to this post, but my thinking is that they have to work together to some extent, seeing as how God is the creator of everything, therefore he created science, so they are related. My personal idea on evolution is that evolution was caused by God creating each of the different forms of "humans" until he got it right, and what we are now was created. Basically my idea is that the theory of evolution was caused by God creating one version, tweaking it, creating another, and so on. Granted I'm not extremely religious, so I don't know all of the details as far as how creation goes, but I don't see why it has to be either one or the other, It makes sense to tie God into evolution to me.

I don't believe in "God". I do believe in evolution, to an extent. I'm not saying this to be nasty or mean but I think most religion comes from being scared or lost in life. Religion gives answers to questions that couldn't otherwise be answered such as "what happens when we die?" and "why should I be a good person?" and "where did we come from" and "why are we here?". The Bible and "God" have "answers" to these questions and makes people feel good, in general... like they have a sense of being and purpose. I truly think that's the only real reason why religion exists :dunno I'm not saying people who have faith are lost in life. I'm just saying I think that's where religion roots from. People need answers and religion/faith provide them. Thinking that there is an all mighty God who watches over us and has great powers to work miracles makes people feel good and everyone wants to feel good. Faith :D I don't disagree with there being some sort of higher being or power of some shape or form, but I don't think it's the all mighty God that Christians believe in, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible or Noah or Adam and Eve. I don't have the answers to how we were created or what will happen when we die, but I don't think the answers are in the Bible.


I really like what you said. I believe that religion just gives hope to the hopeless. I'm not knocking anyone for believing in God or the Bible but I just think it's a false hope.

Just to stir the pot, I thought I'd throw out these websites.

http://iwhome.com/spiritualquest/tracts/dp-index.htm

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/ask-creationist.htm

Except that the bible.ca one can be a little... Eh... Holier than though for me sometimes (even though I am a Christian) but it can make good points.

I don't believe in "God". I do believe in evolution, to an extent. I'm not saying this to be nasty or mean but I think most religion comes from being scared or lost in life. Religion gives answers to questions that couldn't otherwise be answered such as "what happens when we die?" and "why should I be a good person?" and "where did we come from" and "why are we here?". The Bible and "God" have "answers" to these questions and makes people feel good, in general... like they have a sense of being and purpose. I truly think that's the only real reason why religion exists :dunno I'm not saying people who have faith are lost in life. I'm just saying I think that's where religion roots from. People need answers and religion/faith provide them. Thinking that there is an all mighty God who watches over us and has great powers to work miracles makes people feel good and everyone wants to feel good. Faith :D I don't disagree with there being some sort of higher being or power of some shape or form, but I don't think it's the all mighty God that Christians believe in, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible or Noah or Adam and Eve. I don't have the answers to how we were created or what will happen when we die, but I don't think the answers are in the Bible.

Very well put. That is exactly the way I feel too, I just couldn't gather my thoughts the way you did! :lol

I don't believe in "God". I do believe in evolution, to an extent. I'm not saying this to be nasty or mean but I think most religion comes from being scared or lost in life. Religion gives answers to questions that couldn't otherwise be answered such as "what happens when we die?" and "why should I be a good person?" and "where did we come from" and "why are we here?". The Bible and "God" have "answers" to these questions and makes people feel good, in general... like they have a sense of being and purpose. I truly think that's the only real reason why religion exists I'm not saying people who have faith are lost in life. I'm just saying I think that's where religion roots from. People need answers and religion/faith provide them. Thinking that there is an all mighty God who watches over us and has great powers to work miracles makes people feel good and everyone wants to feel good. Faith I don't disagree with there being some sort of higher being or power of some shape or form, but I don't think it's the all mighty God that Christians believe in, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible or Noah or Adam and Eve. I don't have the answers to how we were created or what will happen when we die, but I don't think the answers are in the Bible.

So, so very well put. *********edit- ill put what i mean after coffee

I don't believe in "God". I do believe in evolution, to an extent. I'm not saying this to be nasty or mean but I think most religion comes from being scared or lost in life. Religion gives answers to questions that couldn't otherwise be answered such as "what happens when we die?" and "why should I be a good person?" and "where did we come from" and "why are we here?". The Bible and "God" have "answers" to these questions and makes people feel good, in general... like they have a sense of being and purpose. I truly think that's the only real reason why religion exists :dunno I'm not saying people who have faith are lost in life. I'm just saying I think that's where religion roots from. People need answers and religion/faith provide them. Thinking that there is an all mighty God who watches over us and has great powers to work miracles makes people feel good and everyone wants to feel good. Faith :D I don't disagree with there being some sort of higher being or power of some shape or form, but I don't think it's the all mighty God that Christians believe in, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible or Noah or Adam and Eve. I don't have the answers to how we were created or what will happen when we die, but I don't think the answers are in the Bible.

I believe this is true and ties to my earlier statement of people needing answers back in the days of religion formation on natural phenomenon. I think also, religion is the one way to rule a people. Can you think of anything else (especially pre-modern times) that could instill fear in people like going to hell? Moses goes up to a mountain and comes down with laws etched in stone? In times of unrest who were the people more apt to believe? Some random guy making laws or God telling them laws?

I was thinking about this last night - if I'm striving to be with God, why would I want to be with a higher being who is petty enough to strike down those that pray to idols, or worship the Earth that they believe He or multiple Gods/Goddesses created? Why would a higher being care so much about what lower beings like us are doing? Why would I strive to being a higher being like that? I want to be a higher being that is beyond that kind of pettiness.

Also, if you look back on all the polytheistic religions (Celtics, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, etc) you will see both Gods and Goddesses. Everything had a God/Goddess and a good/bad form. I've studied Egyptian religion and the woman were not as high ranked as the men but in the home and in the deity world they were treated with more equality than in the monotheistic religious worlds. I will add that as Judaism developed (the first organized monotheistic religion) that was when woman started to "fall". But, it was the humans that controlled the religion not the religion itself that failed women.

It's like they have someone to deal with their problems for them. Instead of facing it straight up and dealing with it- they sit there and pray and instead, hope that something better will happen soon. You can't be helped if you don't help yourself first.

Sorry, this made me do a doubletake. So are you saying that Christians don't deal with their problems?? That we don't help ourselves?

I knew this thread would get ugly - religious debates always do. Granted, I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet - so bear with me. Here goes...

Saying we can't be helped if we don't help ourselves first is...wow...I'm not even sure how to finish this sentence :lol Did you ever stop to consider that to a Christian person, praying to God IS helping ourselves? Praying for guidance and strength IS dealing with our problems? It feels like you've just inadvertently categorized Christians as spineless ditzos with no mind of their own. It is really surprising to me that some of the previous comments actually make me feel that some of you would like to reach out and pat Christians on the head and say "There there...I'm glad God makes you feel better" and then in the next breath "...you silly little thing". I absolutely feel as if I'm being looked down upon for being a Christian, and I've never felt that before in my entire life. I suppose that's part of being a Christian, and for millions of Christians, it always has been.

I really think I need to back out of this debate now. I'm really sorry, as much as I'd love to stay and continue, I'm having a really hard time not taking your comments personally - and when it comes to debates I know better than to allow myself to take them personally. :)

And for the record, faith and hope are not the same thing. We don't pray and then "hope that something better will happen soon" - we pray for God to provide strength and guidance, knowing all the while that the outcome of any given situation is entirely up to Him, and also knowing that He won't give us anything that we can't deal with. It's not about getting what we want - it's about getting through life.

Peace out.

Saying we can't be helped if we don't help ourselves first is...wow...I'm not even sure how to finish this sentence :lol Did you ever stop to consider that to a Christian person, praying to God IS helping ourselves? Praying for guidance and strength IS dealing with our problems? It feels like you've just inadvertently categorized Christians as spineless ditzos with no mind of their own. It is really surprising to me that some of the previous comments actually make me feel that some of you would like to reach out and pat Christians on the head and say "There there...I'm glad God makes you feel better" and then in the next breath "...you silly little thing". I absolutely feel as if I'm being looked down upon for being a Christian, and I've never felt that before in my entire life. I suppose that's part of being a Christian, and for millions of Christians, it always has been.


I understand why you're upset (but don't leave! :) I think that it is true that there are "bad-weather" (is that the opposite of fair-weather?) "Christians", that only pray when they need help. But I think anyone devout and faithful to the religion do not do that and pray for, as you said, guidance and strength. Now, on the other side, i can see where she says that because if you haven't been in a religion like this and have never seen it that is what praying seems like. You are asking for help and then just sit back. But I see it as not any different than me meditating which is what I do to recenter myself and feel my guidance from myself. It's a way to center and calm your mind.

The bible, God and Jesus has been and will be a very controversial topic for everyone. To me, the bible is hear-say, so it cannot be "truth". When Jesus was on earth and teaching/spreading the word about God, his disciples were the one recording all of the information from their point of view, not him. There's no doubt in my mind, a man named Jesus walked the earth though. We don't know if the things that he did happened, people who have faith just believe that they did. Same goes for science.

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Belief:any cognitive content held as true; Agreement with a given world view. Eg Belief in the existence of God


With that being said, I believe that the bible we see today has missing and revised pages due to the Catholic Church. I believe that there's alot of things being left unsaid there. I also believe that some religious leaders in the older days used people's faiths to manipulate them, but that's a whole different debate.

I do believe in evolution and science~including the Pangea theory.
I believe in spirits and ghosts, along with what was said earlier about the energy not being created nor destroyed.

I'm still kind of "discovering my beliefs" and figuring out what I believe in. Just so everyone knows, but I do believe in a higher power.

Sorry, this made me do a doubletake. So are you saying that Christians don't deal with their problems?? That we don't help ourselves?

I knew this thread would get ugly - religious debates always do. Granted, I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet - so bear with me. Here goes...

Saying we can't be helped if we don't help ourselves first is...wow...I'm not even sure how to finish this sentence :lol Did you ever stop to consider that to a Christian person, praying to God IS helping ourselves? Praying for guidance and strength IS dealing with our problems? It feels like you've just inadvertently categorized Christians as spineless ditzos with no mind of their own. It is really surprising to me that some of the previous comments actually make me feel that some of you would like to reach out and pat Christians on the head and say "There there...I'm glad God makes you feel better" and then in the next breath "...you silly little thing". I absolutely feel as if I'm being looked down upon for being a Christian, and I've never felt that before in my entire life. I suppose that's part of being a Christian, and for millions of Christians, it always has been.

I really think I need to back out of this debate now. I'm really sorry, as much as I'd love to stay and continue, I'm having a really hard time not taking your comments personally - and when it comes to debat