This is currently a hotly debated topic in the UK, with politicians arguing on both sides. I'm interested to read what you think about it:

Blair's concerns over face veils (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6058672.stm)

Tony Blair has said the wearing of full face veils by Muslim women is a "mark of separation" and made some "outside the community feel uncomfortable".
The prime minister also backed Kirklees Council, which suspended classroom assistant Aishah Azmi for refusing to remove her full face veil at school.

But his intervention was criticised by Ms Azmi's lawyer, as the employment tribunal has yet to give a verdict.

He has threatened proceedings against Mr Blair if there is no retraction.

In his monthly press conference, Mr Blair said there was a need for a wider debate about community integration while allowing people to develop their "distinctive identity".

Mr Blair told reporters at his first news conference since MPs returned from their long summer break that a debate was needed on how the Muslim community integrates with British society.

"Difficult though these issues are, I think they have to be raised and confronted and dealt with," he said.

"And then, there's a second issue, which is about Islam itself and how Islam comes to terms with - and is comfortable with - the modern world."

Community balance

The debate was already going on in "every village, town and city" in the UK, as people sought a balance between "preserving a distinctive identity and integration."

When asked at the news conference if a Muslim woman wearing a veil could make a contribution to society, he replied: "That's a very difficult question.

"It is a mark of separation and that is why it makes other people from outside the community feel uncomfortable.

"No-one wants to say that people don't have the right to do it. That is to take it too far. But I think we need to confront this issue about how we integrate people properly into our society."

He also said he "fully supported" the way the authority dealt with Aishah Azmi at Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, by suspending her.

But her lawyer, Mr Whittingham, said his comments had "specifically and directly" interfered with the employment tribunal - which had yet to make a decision, which would inevitably be appealed against by the losing side.

He said Mr Blair's interference was a breach of the ministerial code, which requires ministers to uphold the administration of justice.

"We require the Prime Minister immediately to issue a qualification or a retraction," he wrote.

"If comments are not qualified or withdrawn then Mrs Azmi will consider bringing a complaint under the ministerial code and bringing injunction proceedings against the prime minister".

Full face veils became a matter of political debate two weeks ago when Jack Straw said he asked women to remove them, when they visited his office.

Government minister Phil Woolas has also angered some Muslim groups by calling for 23-year-old Ms Azmi to be sacked.

But her MP, Labour's Shahid Malik said ministers had been right to give their views and it had resulted in helpful debate.

Oh geez....here we go....

Muslim women have been wearing full face veils forever, and all of a sudden NOW it becomes a problem?
I tell you, the world will take the smallest thing and blow it up....

ITS NOT THAT BIG A DEAL! :no

well said usaf

Well, the current debate started as a security one - motorcyclists and securty personnel have to remove helmets before entering any bank in the UK. People have to remove their shades etc. But Muslim women can walk in wearing a full veil. After the 7/7 bombs, there are calls for security to be tightened, and ensuring that everyone is identified when they walk into a bank is one of the measures that is being debated.

In their statements, Tony Blair and Jack Straw were not telling Muslim women that they should not be allowed to wear their veils in public. The were merely suggesting that in wearing their veils, they are segregating themselves from the general community. I happen to agree with this statement. In communities where there is a high propotion of orthodox Muslims, wearing a veil would not be a huge issue. But part of British culture is smiling at the person you walk past on the street, or chatting to the person next to you at the bus stop. It's a little more difficult to do that when you can't see the person's face. That's just one small example. I've heard people on this forum say that when people move to the US, they should at least be able to speak the language. I don't think this is so different - a lot of communication is conveyed through facial expressions and a majority of people are taken aback at best when that part of communication is taken away.

Whilst this debate has exploded due to current affairs, it has been raging on in the UK since the 70's, so it's nothing new. I was just interested in your views on the subject. :dunno

I read about that and I'm not sure how i feel about it. I do understand where the statement is coming from and from that standpoint i agree. but i think it's if they are discouraged to show their faces that goes against their core religious beliefs, so i see that standpoint too. it's a toughie.

I read about that and I'm not sure how i feel about it. I do understand where the statement is coming from and from that standpoint i agree. but i think it's if they are discouraged to show their faces that goes against their core religious beliefs, so i see that standpoint too. it's a toughie.

I'm not sure that it does go against their relgious beliefs. From my understanding, it's more of a cultural stance, similar to the choice some women make to wear a sari or salwar. It doesn't state in the Qur'an that women have to wear veils.

Although it may not be stated in the Quran, however if you ask most Sunni(the sect that makes up 90+% of Muslims) scholars or Imams, they will say that it is what God expects the women of the Islamic religion to do. Also, similar to other religions, there are mulitple places for a Muslim to get answers to their everyday questions about life. They go to the Quran, and if the answer is not in there, they go to the Traditions of the Prophet Mohammad. If the answer is not in there, they go to scholars. Therefore, even though it may not be stated in the Quran, it may be included elsewhere. Muslims Many think that it's degrading to women to have to wear a veil. However it is certainly not the way the Muslims look upon it. Men in the Islamic religion are expected by God to protect women. Women are looked at as gracious, beautiful human beings. They are actually looked at as the head of households and the heart of the family, and the men vow to protect their wife for the rest of their lives. I think it's beautiful, and no different than other religions. I would be very upset if my government told me I was separating myself from society by wearing my cross around my neck. And I think followers of Judaism would be very upset if they were told they were separating themselves from society by wearing a yamaca. I just rambeled so I'm done:giggle

I would be very upset if my government told me I was separating myself from society by wearing my cross around my neck. And I think followers of Judaism would be very upset if they were told they were separating themselves from society by wearing a yamaca. I just rambeled so I'm done:giggle

You know what? I couldn't have said it any better...I completely agree. It's part of their religion. Period. You can't ask someone to change their relgious habits because it makes people uncomfortable....

The following story hit today's news:

MP tells veil woman 'let it go' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6069012.stm)

A Muslim teaching assistant suspended for wearing a full-face veil has been urged by her MP to give up her fight.
Aishah Azmi lost her employment tribunal case for discrimination and harassment, but was awarded damages for victimisation by Kirklees Council.

Her legal representative said they will take the case to "a higher court".

But Dewsbury Labour MP Shahid Malik told the BBC: "I would appeal to Mrs Azmi now just to let this thing go. There is no real support for it."

It comes as Conservative leader David Cameron warned politicians to consider the effects before "piling" into the row on women wearing full-face veils.

Mr Cameron said he was concerned British Muslims were feeling "slightly targeted" on the issue.

'Untested'

Mrs Azmi was suspended from Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire.

Nick Whittingham, of Kirklees Law Centre which is representing Mrs Azmi, said: "This is a new area of law in terms of religious belief discrimination.

"It's untested so we need to be taking that to a higher court."

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme they would look particularly at whether the case fell into an area of direct or indirect discrimination.

"What we are trying to say is that she can do her job perfectly even if she is wearing a veil," he said.

But Mr Malik told BBC Look North the tribunal ruling was "absolutely spot on".

"I have got Muslim parents in my constituency who have said that they wouldn't send their children to a school where the teachers wore veils while they were teaching.

"I just think there is very little support for this, she is very isolated and it would be healthy all round if she just let it go and just accept the tribunal result," he told BBC Radio Leeds.

'Separation'

Her case fuelled the debate on full-face veils, originally sparked when Commons leader Jack Straw said he asked Muslim women to remove veils when they visited his constituency advice surgeries.

Prime minister Tony Blair also added his voice to the debate saying the full-veil was a "mark of separation".

But David Cameron told ITV1's Frost Tonight: "I think there is a danger of politicians piling in to have their tenpence-worth and really they have to ask themselves whether this is having an overall good effect or not."

Mr Cameron said that in cases like Mrs Azmi's, it should be up to the school and local authority to make their own judgement.

The chair of social and family affairs at the Muslim Council of Britain, Reefat Drabu, said the veil was not obligatory.

She said Mrs Azmi's stance was "exacerbating the misunderstanding" of Islam, and making things harder for Muslim communities in Britain.

"She does have a responsibility of what's happening to the rest of the Muslims who are living in the country."

She said that since the issue had been in the media there "have been more attacks on Muslim women, there have been more mosques that have been vandalised, and...a continuous hammering of Muslims throughout the country."

After the ruling, Mrs Azmi criticised ministers who had intervened in the case and said it made her "fearful of the consequences for Muslim women in this country who want to work".

I happen to fully agree with you Sonia.


If a person wants to leave their home country, to make a better life for themselves, then shouldn't they try to fit in as much as possible into their new country? I think with all religious beliefs aside- one should conform to the standards of the area. If an anglo saxon had to take their scarf off of their hair whilst entering the bank then so should a muslim woman. If you really thought about it- not asking the muslim woman, but asking the white person would actually be raciest. I don't think there should be discrimination, but i also don't think there should be a waiver either.

I would be very upset if my government told me I was separating myself from society by wearing my cross around my neck.

If it hid your identity that would be a different thing. The whole outcry over this situation isn't because its religious, its because it hides ones identity. Which in itself, is a major liability. If a muslim woman robbed a bank- she wouldn't have a chance in hell being caught unless they could track down the designer of her clothing! No one could possibly identify her when they can only see a tiny part of her whole entire body.

I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand these women believe it's what God expects of them, on the other hand there are sacrifices to be made in the name of security. It's a different world we live in these days, eh? I can sympathize with both sides.

:sigh

I agree with Simmybabez. The reason they are bringing it up is safety reasons. Dont get me wrong I can see how they dont wanna take it off because it is what God wants them to wear, but if they are entering places that have requirements IE the bank, they too should have to follow the regulations and take down their veils. That is a really good point that if a Muslim woman was to try and rob a store/bank no one would ever be able to identify her. I believe they should be able to wear them around if they would like but when entering places that require them to remove them they should.