Uproar over Kerry Iraq remarks
Bush says troops deserve apology; Kerry says joke aimed at president
NBC VIDEO


• Kerry: Get educated, or 'get stuck in Iraq'
Oct. 31: Sen. John Kerry tells California students that those unable to navigate the country’s education system will “get stuck in Iraq.”
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Updated: 32 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The White House and Sen. John Kerry traded their harshest accusations since the 2004 presidential race on Tuesday, with President Bush accusing the Democrat of troop-bashing and Kerry calling the president's men hacks who are "willing to lie."

The war of words, tough even for this hard-fought campaign season, came after Kerry told a group of California students on Monday that those unable to navigate the country's education system "get stuck in Iraq."

The two parties are searching for any edge amid indications Democrats could take back the House and possibly win control of the Senate in next week's midterm elections. Though neither Bush nor Kerry is on any ballot, the bitterness with which they fought each other as 2004 rivals spilled over as both campaign hard for their parties in a race shaped in large measure by public doubts about the Iraq war.

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White House press secretary Tony Snow was asked about Kerry's comment at his regular briefing with reporters, and had clearly come prepared with a lengthy attack. He said the quote "fits a pattern" of negative remarks about U.S. soldiers from the decorated Vietnam veteran and suggested that whether Democratic candidates - particularly those running on their military service backgrounds - agree with their 2004 standard-bearer should be a campaign litmus test.

Bush statement asks for apology
The White House also released in advance remarks Bush was to deliver later in the day while campaigning in Georgia, in which the president called Kerry's statement "insulting and shameful." Bush, like his spokesman earlier, said soldiers deserve an apology from Kerry.

"Our troops did not enlist because they did not study hard in school or do their homework," Bush said in his prepared remarks for a former GOP congressman, Mac Collins, who is trying to oust Democratic Rep. Jim Marshall. "The men and women who serve in our all-volunteer armed forces are plenty smart and are serving because they are patriots."


Related material
Live vote: Were Kerry’s comments appropriate?
Discuss: Should Kerry apologize for ‘troop bashing’?



Kerry, who is considering another run for the White House in 2008, angrily fired back.

His statement called Republicans "assorted right-wing nut jobs."

And at a hastily arranged news conference in Seattle, Kerry said: "I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy."

Kerry explanation
Kerry said the comment in question was "a botched joke about the president and the president's people, not about the troops ... and they know that's what I was talking about."

It came during a campaign rally for California Democratic gubernatorial candidate Phil Angelides. Kerry opened his speech at Pasadena City College with several one-liners, saying at one point that Bush had lived in Texas but now "lives in a state of denial."

He then said: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

That, Kerry said, was meant as a reference to Bush, not troops. Kerry said it is the president who owes U.S. soldiers an apology - for "a Katrina foreign policy" that misled the country into war in Iraq, failed to adequately study and plan for the aftermath, has not properly equipped troops and has expanded the terrorist threat.

The Massachusetts Democrat called the White House attack "a classic GOP textbook Republican campaign tactic" that reveals Republicans' "willingness to reduce anything in America to raw politics."

"I'm sick and tired of a bunch of despicable Republicans who will not debate real policy, who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes, standing up and trying to make other people the butt of those mistakes," he said. "It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks who've never worn the uniform of our country are willing to lie about those who did."

Unsubstantiated allegations about Kerry's Vietnam War heroism from a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth figured prominently in the 2004 Kerry-Bush race. Even Kerry has blamed his slow and uncertain response to the group's claims for helping to doom his White House chances, and Democrats viewed the Tuesday fracas as a test of that lesson.

"Enough is enough. We're not going to stand for this," Kerry said. "We are going to stay in their face with the truth."

Election issue?
Other Republicans, sensing opportunity for their side, piled on throughout the day with their own demands for an apology from Kerry.

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GOP Sen. John McCain, like Kerry a decorated Vietnam veteran and a potential 2008 rival, said while campaigning for Republican candidates in Indiana that "the suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq is an insult to every soldier serving in combat today."

Added House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., struggling to keep his party in control of Congress: "Our soldiers risk their lives in the face of grave dangers on the battlefield, and no one who chooses to courageously and selflessly defend our country can be considered 'uneducated.' "

Separately, the White House issued President Bush's Veterans' Day proclamation praising those who have served in the armed forces - a week and a half before the holiday.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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I believe that he does need to apologize for the way his screw up came out as. He doesnt have to apologize for how he feels about Bush, Iraq, nothing. Just stand up, be a man, admit you botched your speech and apologize to the troops. That you dont think they are all uneducated and dumb! Geez, how freaking hard is that?

To me he's a cocky man.. always has been and he needs to accept he made a mistake and fess up and apologize. If he didn't "mean" to say it he needs to apologize instead of being arrogant like he's being. I'm so sick of all the BS from the politicians

fuck stupid politicians.....im so sick and tired of hearing about their bullshit. i like kerry, but if he really did say that...he needs to fess up, apologize, and move on with it. i can understand him not liking bush...but don't blame the troops (if that was really what he was doing).

What an asshole! Obviously he needs a little better education about today's military......a MUCH smarter military than his day.

I heard him say it, and I couldn't believe it when he did. Then everyone went apeshit - which was, IMO, absolutely justified. Now Kerry is coming back saying it wasn't a putdown to the soldiers and the republicans are just trying to spin it... :blahblah :blahblah :blahblah He's full of SHIT, and I don't know WHAT he thought he stood to gain with a comment like that.

I already have blood boiling opinions of John Kerry and his opinions of proper military actions/comments...all he did was fuel my fire.

lighthouse very well said :fetti to you!!! he's a prick and honestly he can :asskiss

where the f*ck does he get off saying shit like that?

I saw this and was sooo freaking angry. My boyfriend is not spending his first year in the navy in school because he's stupid. Jay is really smart, he just never liked high school and homework.

I called Jaymes and asked him what he thought about it and he was pretty pissed.

I just saw this on the news ! Kerry can KISS IT !!! I cannot stand him and his MOUTH !!!!!

"ONLY DUMMIES END UP IN IRAQ.",says Senator Kerry..

Oh, did that piss me off more then I can say.. I THANK THE LORD that this man is NOT the Commander In Chief...He obviously has no respect for our boys, and therefore IMO, is underqualified to lead them if that's what he truely thinks about them...

How dare he emmulate that my man isn't smart? My man may not be the best speller in the world, he might not know everything about "booksmarts" like chemistry and algebra... But he's obviously got a whole lot more intelligence then that man...

My friend Kelly posted this on her blog tonight:
Way to insinuate that our military service members in Iraq are not smart, Senator Kerry. That's a nice way to boost morale. I guess my husband's Ivy League engineering degree just wasn't enough to keep him out of Iraq. Kerry did go to Yale - maybe that's why my husband's degree from Harvard doesn't count as "an effort to be smart" and didn't keep him from getting "stuck in Iraq."


In any case, I'm still not impressed. Just another politician eager to criticize with very little to say about how to actually fix anything. *sigh*
Well said Kelly...

BAH!!! Happy Halloween...

this seriously pissed me off. he NEEDS to apolgise.
i used to like him, this seriously changes how i feel. :(

Oh, yea... Was watching the news with my BIL who served for 12 months with the 151st Artillery, 34th ID...

HE SAID, "To think I was sitting 2 chairs away from thay guy TWICE at Camp Travis.. I should've stabbed him with my plastic fork."

Every enlisted man or woman should take this a personal insult to their way of life, and their intelligence...

Makes me feel like this........
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/MN110/Norton.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/MN110/Norton.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/MN110/Norton.gif

All I have to say is fuck Kerry and I'm glad he isn't our president.

What an asshole! Obviously he needs a little better education about today's military......a MUCH smarter military than his day.

:lol

All I have to say is fuck Kerry and I'm glad he isn't our president.

:agree :yes :yes :yes

All I have to say is fuck Kerry and I'm glad he isn't our president.

:woohoo well said

I heard him say it, and I couldn't believe it when he did. Then everyone went apeshit - which was, IMO, absolutely justified. Now Kerry is coming back saying it wasn't a putdown to the soldiers and the republicans are just trying to spin it... :blahblah :blahblah :blahblah He's full of SHIT, and I don't know WHAT he thought he stood to gain with a comment like that.

I already have blood boiling opinions of John Kerry and his opinions of proper military actions/comments...all he did was fuel my fire.

AMEN!!!! My thoughts exactly!!

Well, damn....if you want to criticize the government, then attack the government, not the troops. The troops are just following orders from a fucked-up government.
Education has nothing to do with war....if these men were as educated as they THINK they are, there would be no damn war.

I think he is a dumbass.
But seriously do we want him to appolagize just cause we want to hear it? I mean he obviously doesn't want to! KWIM

Well, damn....if you want to criticize the government, then attack the government, not the troops. The troops are just following orders from a fucked-up government.
Education has nothing to do with war....if these men were as educated as they THINK they are, there would be no damn war.

VERY WELL SAID!!! I know half the people over in Iraq would much rather be home with thier familys, but instead they HAVE to be there because PEOPLE make them go!!! It has nothing to do with how smart or "stupid" they are!!

men and politics dont mix..... I SAY WE NEED AN ALL FEMALE GOVERMENT:teehee ..... I SWEAR WOMEN CAN ONLY GET ALONG AND GET IT DONE... :D .... (remember in our history books women produced more supplies for our troop faster suring WWII than the men did before WWII)


VOTES FOR WOMEN!!!!!!!

I just don't understand what his point was. He isn't stupid enough to say or insinuate something as blatantly idiotic as the military is full of stupid people. but i don't understand how what he said ties to what he claims he meant?

He just proved he's an incompetent asshole! God I'm glad he didn't win the election! :rolleyes

He just proved he's an incompetent asshole! God I'm glad he didn't win the election! :rolleyes

:yes and emphatic :yes lol

What an idiotic thing to say! I thought the whole point of speeches was to gain support, not lose it.. :rolleyes

zelda all i have to say is :rofl very true

He stuck his foot in his big fat mouth yet again. How fucking insensitive can one person be? Obviously a lot from what he said :club :flippa

well from what i heard he supported and backed the war! he's an ass

well from what i heard he supported and backed the war! he's an ass

He doesn't know what he supports and believes. He proved that during the election. :nutts

I can't believe I supported this man. I'm disgusted. I love McCain and his responses. My stomach is seriously sick at the fact that I held signs for Kerry, made phone calls for him, sent out letters for him. But, I am not ashamed to be Democrat because of him, I'm just ashamed of him. Not my political orientation.

*I posted this somewhere else too...I think I may be the only one that feels this way though :ohno

:thinkin I read a similar article yesterday about this and while I am not and never was a Kerry supporter I don't believe that he was in any way trying to insult the armed forces in Iraq. I do believe that he could have worded what he said much better, but I understand what he was trying to say. Basically, what I gathered from his comment, was that he was calling Bush an idiot

*I posted this somewhere else too...I think I may be the only one that feels this way though :ohno

:thinkin I read a similar article yesterday about this and while I am not and never was a Kerry supporter I don't believe that he was in any way trying to insult the armed forces in Iraq. I do believe that he could have worded what he said much better, but I understand what he was trying to say. Basically, what I gathered from his comment, was that he was calling Bush an idiot

I agree with you, but it was a very foolish mistake to make!

I don't understand how you can gather from his remark that he was calling Bush an idiot. What he said was that if you don't get educated you get stuck in Iraq. Are you saying he meant that in a broad sense? What a moron he is to think that his comment would be taken for anything other than face value. Without twisting his words, he said what he said, and I believe that he meant every word of it. If he didn't mean it, he wouldn't have such a hard time apologizing TO THE FUCKING TROOPS that he offended. He doesn't have to apologize to Bush, he doesn't have to apologize to the DOD, he doesn't have to apologize to the American people. But for God's sake, apologize to the very people that he cut down - be it accidentally or not. But no. He refuses to apologize to ANYONE.

Did I mention that I'm not a fan?

I don't understand how you can gather from his remark that he was calling Bush an idiot. What he said was that if you don't get educated you get stuck in Iraq. Are you saying he meant that in a broad sense? What a moron he is to think that his comment would be taken for anything other than face value. Without twisting his words, he said what he said, and I believe that he meant every word of it. If he didn't mean it, he wouldn't have such a hard time apologizing TO THE FUCKING TROOPS that he offended. He doesn't have to apologize to Bush, he doesn't have to apologize to the DOD, he doesn't have to apologize to the American people. But for God's sake, apologize to the very people that he cut down - be it accidentally or not. But no. He refuses to apologize to ANYONE.

Did I mention that I'm not a fan?


You took the words right out of my mouth.

Ya know.. people put Bush down.. but look what our other option was. He might not be the best president in history but the alternative was worse.

I don't understand how you can gather from his remark that he was calling Bush an idiot. What he said was that if you don't get educated you get stuck in Iraq. Are you saying he meant that in a broad sense? What a moron he is to think that his comment would be taken for anything other than face value. Without twisting his words, he said what he said, and I believe that he meant every word of it. If he didn't mean it, he wouldn't have such a hard time apologizing TO THE FUCKING TROOPS that he offended. He doesn't have to apologize to Bush, he doesn't have to apologize to the DOD, he doesn't have to apologize to the American people. But for God's sake, apologize to the very people that he cut down - be it accidentally or not. But no. He refuses to apologize to ANYONE.

Sorry it took me so long to reply but the button wouldn't work for some reason:eek

I, like you, did not like Kerry from the start. He was just too wishy-washy for me...this being an example of that. I do understand what he was *trying* to say even though he completely butchered it. I think what he meant to say is: If you are unintelligent, like President Bush, you will end up in Iraq, you being 'the country'. Iraq not meaning Iraq precisely but any 'bad time' for the country. I think the reason he won't apologize is because if he does people will automatically assume that he DID mean to put down the troops and that would be suicide for his already waning support. :thinkin Or, who knows, maybe I'm giving him too much credit :shrug

probably too much credit!

*I posted this somewhere else too...I think I may be the only one that feels this way though :ohno

:thinkin I read a similar article yesterday about this and while I am not and never was a Kerry supporter I don't believe that he was in any way trying to insult the armed forces in Iraq. I do believe that he could have worded what he said much better, but I understand what he was trying to say. Basically, what I gathered from his comment, was that he was calling Bush an idiot

I agree! I also wanted to add that it has "some "truth to it, probably not in the way he was thinking though! How many students do you know that "take a break" from college and join the military to help pay for college,or because they are just tired of college? If you do your homework, and do well in school, you'll be able to get financial assistance from the state, or your school. AND, "IF YOU GET STUCK IN IRAQ" I think he means if you are doing well in school, and you graduate, then you won't want to join the military. Recruiters know that a lot of college students CHOOSE to leave the universities and go to the military, HINCE the reason they go there!

This is probably not what he meant, but that's what I got out of that sentence!

Sorry it took me so long to reply but the button wouldn't work for some reason:eek

I, like you, did not like Kerry from the start. He was just too wishy-washy for me...this being an example of that. I do understand what he was *trying* to say even though he completely butchered it. I think what he meant to say is: If you are unintelligent, like President Bush, you will end up in Iraq, you being 'the country'. Iraq not meaning Iraq precisely but any 'bad time' for the country. I think the reason he won't apologize is because if he does people will automatically assume that he DID mean to put down the troops and that would be suicide for his already waning support. :thinkin Or, who knows, maybe I'm giving him too much credit :shrug


EXACTLY, and A LOT of people say the reason why he didn't win the election was because he did NOT stand up to Republicans, so this is what he's trying to do! If he apologizes, then it might make things worse...

I agree! I also wanted to add that it has "some "truth to it, probably not in the way he was thinking though! How many students do you know that "take a break" from college and join the military to help pay for college,or because they are just tired of college? If you do your homework, and do well in school, you'll be able to get financial assistance from the state, or your school. AND, "IF YOU GET STUCK IN IRAQ" I think he means if you are doing well in school, and you graduate, then you won't want to join the military. Recruiters know that a lot of college students CHOOSE to leave the universities and go to the military, HINCE the reason they go there!

This is probably not what he meant, but that's what I got out of that sentence!

I completely agree with you Becca and disagree here.
There are lots o people that I know who have a degree and then joined the military!

I completely agree with you Becca and disagree here.
There are lots o people that I know who have a degree and then joined the military!


I agree. I do also.

Not everyone who joins the military joins to have school paid for or because they can't get a decent job. it's ignorant to even think that.

You know, I knew exactly what he was going for with his "joke". But that is NOT how it came out. He needs to apologize to the troops because he messed up. Do I honestly care if he does, no. I could give a rats ass what that really does. He is a poor excuse for man.

You know, yea, we are in a really tough spot as a country. But you know what, I am still glad that I voted for Bush. Cause i would hate to see where this country would have been with that spineless twit in office.

You know, I knew exactly what he was going for with his "joke". But that is NOT how it came out. He needs to apologize to the troops because he messed up. Do I honestly care if he does, no. I could give a rats ass what that really does. He is a poor excuse for man.

You know, yea, we are in a really tough spot as a country. But you know what, I am still glad that I voted for Bush. Cause i would hate to see where this country would have been with that spineless twit in office.

:yes :yes :yes

spineless twit

You describe Kerry well!

I agree. I do also.

Not everyone who joins the military joins to have school paid for or because they can't get a decent job. it's ignorant to even think that.

1 out of 4 college students drop out, and how many years to graduate does it take the rest? After droppping out of college, how many other options will these adults have? I just think that his remark has a little truth to it! HINCE the words I used, SOME, A LOT, and little!

FYI For any one that read HOW the joke got botched.
Personally i know i have screwed up the delivery of a joke before.

Kerry insists that the target of his joke was Bush. Kerry's office said the senator had intended to say,
"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

There are plenty of adults out there in the big bad world that didn't graduate college and are doing just fine - there were clearly other options for them to explore ;)

I think his statement was condescending, belittling (sp?), and INCREDIBLY arrogant. Oh but wait - this is John Kerry we're talking about here - we shouldn't have expected any less.

:edit

And Jason, he said nothing about the war in Iraq (verbatim) - he didn't say "you end up getting stuck in a war in Iraq". He said "...you end up getting stuck in Iraq." He didn't just **oopsie** leave out a word.

No - I have no forgiveness on this one.

FYI For any one that read HOW the joke got botched.
Personally i know i have screwed up the delivery of a joke before.

Kerry insists that the target of his joke was Bush. Kerry's office said the senator had intended to say,

Oh I know how it was supposed to come out. But that isnt the point. How it did come out was an insult and degrading. Be a man, admit you messed up, apologize for the way it came out and move on. done, easy. no, he has to be an asshole. that's ok. I truly believe that his true colors have finally come through to the public and he will pay the price with his career.

Exactly WHY I DID NOT vote for him.

Oh I know how it was supposed to come out. But that isnt the point. How it did come out was an insult and degrading. Be a man, admit you messed up, apologize for the way it came out and move on. done, easy. no, he has to be an asshole. that's ok. I truly believe that his true colors have finally come through to the public and he will pay the price with his career.

You mean this one?


Democratic Senator John Kerry said he was sorry about a "botched joke" that drew fire from President George W. Bush and other Republicans who accused him of insulting U.S. troops in Iraq.

Kerry said his remarks about Iraq troops were aimed at Bush, not the military.

EXACTLY, and A LOT of people say the reason why he didn't win the election was because he did NOT stand up to Republicans, so this is what he's trying to do! If he apologizes, then it might make things worse...

He doesn't need to apologize to the republicans. He needs to apologize to those uneducated soldiers stuck in Iraq. He needs to eat crow.

Jason, did you see the video of the "supposed" apology? He didnt apologize. He then ended that confrence with he is not apologizing to ANYONE! The print media put that it was an apology.

I agree! I also wanted to add that it has "some "truth to it, probably not in the way he was thinking though! How many students do you know that "take a break" from college and join the military to help pay for college,or because they are just tired of college? If you do your homework, and do well in school, you'll be able to get financial assistance from the state, or your school. AND, "IF YOU GET STUCK IN IRAQ" I think he means if you are doing well in school, and you graduate, then you won't want to join the military. Recruiters know that a lot of college students CHOOSE to leave the universities and go to the military, HINCE the reason they go there!

This is probably not what he meant, but that's what I got out of that sentence!

I doubt that Kerry intended to insult the military - just the President. Saying that, I STILL Think he's an ASS for what he said.
I think it is ignorant to think or say that if you graduate from college, then you wouldn't WANT to join the military... Hello - how many officers are in the military? I also think it's ignorant to assume that just because someone joins the military INSTEAD of going to college, the individual is uneducated. So Not true. Yes, there are those that may not have the capacity to make it thru 4 years of college, but there are also those that may not have the means to go to college because of financial or family situations. The military trains it's members for a job. I am in a field that 'normally' requires a college degree. I am the only one in my department that does NOT have a college degree - does that make me any less intellegent? any less capable? No. I was trained by the military and am just as capable, if not MORE capable than my counterparts. I learned by doing.

He stopped short of apologizing for what he said, but expressed regret that he was misinterpreted.

I took this from a news article on MSN.

For me, regret is not the same thing as an apology.

ok, i'm sorry, but WHAT A FUCKING ASSHOLE. our troops are over there laying their lives on the line EVERYDAY for his sorry ass to have freedom, and he has the balls to call them uneducated idiots? FUCK HIM! let's send him over there and see how he does! you have to have guts and smarts to make it over there. so FUCK YOU, KERRY! :madwife

I don't understand how people can be so quick to call Kerry names but refuse to hear Bush criticised in any way. Yes, Kerry said something very very foolish. He made a blunder. Who cares - it's not like you voted for him!! It really doesn't matter what he thinks! Bush, on the other hand, is president of your country - every decision he makes affects you. Why is he beyond criticism for certain things hey says and does?

Bush is certainly not beyond criticism. My wrath with John Kerry over this issue has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bush criticism, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with blatantly insulting our troops.

I don't understand how people can be so quick to call Kerry names but refuse to hear Bush criticised in any way. Yes, Kerry said something very very foolish. He made a blunder. Who cares - it's not like you voted for him!! It really doesn't matter what he thinks! Bush, on the other hand, is president of your country - every decision he makes affects you. Why is he beyond criticism for certain things hey says and does?


I think he pretty much is criticized and called names all the time....so I don't understand what you mean? :dunno

Bush is certainly not beyond criticism. My wrath with John Kerry over this issue has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bush criticism, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with blatantly insulting our troops.

:yes

Sorry, I'm getting off topic. It just gets me - I've been told on this forum not to say anying negative about Bush on other threads, but here people are happy to call Kerry names. I'm not saying that Kerry doesn't deserve it, it just seems from my observations on here that Bush is beyond criticism when it's his words that should matter more. :dunno

Bush is certainly not beyond criticism. My wrath with John Kerry over this issue has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bush criticism, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with blatantly insulting our troops.

very well said Becca

aah just ignore me!!

Sorry, I'm getting off topic. It just gets me - I've been told on this forum not to say anying negative about Bush on other threads, but here people are happy to call Kerry names. I'm not saying that Kerry doesn't deserve it, it just seems from my observations on here that Bush is beyond criticism when it's his words that should matter more. :dunno

Remember Sonia He is NOT president Bush is so AD memebers can't speak of Commander in Chief no matter if they dislike him.
Kerry can and will be spoken about because he was stupid for what he said

Sorry, I'm getting off topic. It just gets me - I've been told on this forum not to say anying negative about Bush on other threads, but here people are happy to call Kerry names. I'm not saying that Kerry doesn't deserve it, it just seems from my observations on here that Bush is beyond criticism when it's his words that should matter more. :dunno

Well of course that statement is just screaming for the question "who told you not to say anything negative about Bush?" So there - I asked it.

Aside from that, Bush's words definately do matter more than John Kerry's words, and no one here has claimed otherwise. That is however neither here nor there, because this argument is not at all about John Kerry and George Bush. It's about John Kerry and the US military.

I really don't know how to be any more clear than that...

Bush is certainly not beyond criticism. My wrath with John Kerry over this issue has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bush criticism, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with blatantly insulting our troops.

exactly. no one has said in there comments that bush doesn't deserve criticism. he is criticized daily. but he didn't call our troops uneducated. this thread has nothing to do with bush, though.

Remember Sonia He is NOT president Bush is so AD memebers can't speak of Commander in Chief no matter if they dislike him.
Kerry can and will be spoken about because he was stupid for what he said

We're not AD though....

Well of course that statement is just screaming for the question "who told you not to say anything negative about Bush?" So there - I asked it.

Aside from that, Bush's words definately do matter more than John Kerry's words, and no one here has claimed otherwise. That is however neither here nor there, because this argument is not at all about John Kerry and George Bush. It's about John Kerry and the US military.

I really don't know how to be any more clear than that...

I'll PM you who said it, I don't want to give out names on here.

I know that this particular topic has very little to do with George Bush. I guess I was just thinking out loud - I've never seen people call George Bush names like Kerry has been called on this thread. As I said, sorry for going off topic!

We're not AD though....

ah, but we are watched just as closely. all the big military support sites are monitored for what we say. they are watching for OPSEC stuff. we are considered dependants. when it comes down to the bottom line, our SO's are held responsible for what we say and what we do.

I've never seen people call George Bush names like Kerry has been called on this thread. As I said, sorry for going off topic!

Oh, there are plenty of people here that despise the president, I promise :giggle

ah, but we are watched just as closely. all the big military support sites are monitored for what we say. they are watching for OPSEC stuff. we are considered dependants. when it comes down to the bottom line, our SO's are held responsible for what we say and what we do.

So as military so's we're not allowed our own political views?

So as military so's we're not allowed our own political views?

no you can.... i have seen guys get chewed out for what wives have said. not just with the Navy, that is growing up in the air force too. with this stuff there is a big gray area.

i was always taught, "As a military dependant, spouse or child, you have to watch what you say and what you do. Because when it comes down to it, you arent the one that is going to be held responsible."

So as military so's we're not allowed our own political views?

not true. we are. but do we need to advertise out dislike of certain leaders? that is not what is being said at all, that we aren't allowed to have our own political views. but when you dislike the commander-in-chief of the military, and your SO is IN the military, don't you think it a little inappropriate to advertise your dislike? :dunno

not true. we are. but do we need to advertise out dislike of certain leaders? that is not what is being said at all, that we aren't allowed to have our own political views. but when you dislike the commander-in-chief of the military, and your SO is IN the military, don't you think it a little inappropriate to advertise your dislike? :dunno

So we are allowed our own views but if they're not in line with the governments, we're not allowed to voice them? :shock What happened to free speech?!

There's a difference between "inappropriate" and "punishable by death"

So we are allowed our own views but if they're not in line with the governments, we're not allowed to voice them? :shock What happened to free speech?!

that's not at all what i'm saying. think of it this way. if you had a job and you're husband disliked your boss, would you want him to plaster it all over your workplace? wouldn't you be a little mad? and in jeopardy of losing your job?

Remember Sonia He is NOT president Bush is so AD memebers can't speak of Commander in Chief no matter if they dislike him.
Kerry can and will be spoken about because he was stupid for what he said

I'd have to disagree with you. Where is it written in the rules that an AD member can not speak his/her mind about the President and/or the President's decisions? You don't give up your right to free speech just because you are in the military. It may be wise to be cautious to whom you voice your opinion too, but not restricted.

that's not at all what i'm saying. think of it this way. if you had a job and you're husband disliked your boss, would you want him to plaster it all over your workplace? wouldn't you be a little mad? and in jeopardy of losing your job?

How is expressing my views on here plastering it all over his workplace? I can understand not wanting to hold a billboard slating the government or the military at the gates of a military base, but I can't believe that our views should not be expressed in a news and debates forum. We may be linked as military so's but we have not enlisted and this site is not officially affiliated with the govt.

I'm completely shocked. Even when I was in the Royal Air Force, I was allowed an opinion on the govt. and the way the country was being run. It was deemed as my right to freedom of speech! I'm shocked..speechless...

I'd have to disagree with you. Where is it written in the rules that an AD member can not speak his/her mind about the President and/or the President's decisions? You don't give up your right to free speech just because you are in the military. It may be wise to be cautious to whom you voice your opinion too, but not restricted.

Actually I'm almost positive it is a rule somewhere.

How is expressing my views on here plastering it all over his workplace? I can understand not wanting to hold a billboard slating the government or the military at the gates of a military base, but I can't believe that our views should not be expressed in a news and debates forum. We may be linked as military so's but we have not enlisted and this site is not officially affiliated with the govt.

I'm completely shocked. Even when I was in the Royal Air Force, I was allowed an opinion on the govt. and the way the country was being run. It was deemed as my right to freedom of speech! I'm shocked..speechless...

it doesnt matter if the board is offically associated with the military. the pure fact that there are a lot of military so's on here, constitutes that we are being watched for OPSEC and other issues. how do you think the majority of OPSEC stuff is released. by so's that dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. If OPSEC was a huge issue all the time, and nothing was done about it, this board could be shut down. harsh yes, but for safety, good reason. but just because they are looking for OPSEC stuff, doesnt mean that cant see the rest of the info we post.

How is expressing my views on here plastering it all over his workplace? I can understand not wanting to hold a billboard slating the government or the military at the gates of a military base, but I can't believe that our views should not be expressed in a news and debates forum. We may be linked as military so's but we have not enlisted and this site is not officially affiliated with the govt.

I'm completely shocked. Even when I was in the Royal Air Force, I was allowed an opinion on the govt. and the way the country was being run. It was deemed as my right to freedom of speech! I'm shocked..speechless...

TECHNICALLY we have the right to say whatever we want. people are just trying to say that it can have an effect on the AD spouse. BUT there is nothing they can legitimently do to your spouse.. for instance, the command can be assholes but they can't actually do anything because they do not own you.

Actually I'm almost positive it is a rule somewhere.

I agree, DH has had 2 commands now pass down in the minutes not to publicly bad mouth the prez.

TECHNICALLY we have the right to say whatever we want. people are just trying to say that it can have an effect on the AD spouse. BUT there is nothing they can legitimently do to your spouse.. the command can be assholes but they can't actually do anything because they do not own you.

no they cant do anything the spouse, but they can to the AD member. and i have seen it happen many times with other issues.

I have seen many times, guys going to mast for something their spouse or child did.

I agree, DH has had 2 commands now pass down in the minutes not to publicly bad mouth the prez.


They arent allowed to publicly speak of thier political views if they are negative.

I'm sure the commands vehemently discourage it. I do really have a hard time believing that they could outlaw it, because that equates to censorship...which violates the first amendment...and if anyone was punished for "badmouthing the CIC", and that was the :quote documented reason :quote all holy hell would break loose.

The rest of the country would go absolutely nuts over it.

it doesnt matter if the board is offically associated with the military. the pure fact that there are a lot of military so's on here, constitutes that we are being watched for OPSEC and other issues. how do you think the majority of OPSEC stuff is released. by so's that dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. If OPSEC was a huge issue all the time, and nothing was done about it, this board could be shut down. harsh yes, but for safety, good reason. but just because they are looking for OPSEC stuff, doesnt mean that cant see the rest of the info we post.

I understand being watched for OPSEC, but I was under the impression that the freedom to voice your own opinion applied to everyone in the US. I mean, you have a right to bear arms but not to say anything negative about the government? It just seems a little crazy to me.

no they cant do anything the spouse, but they can to the AD member. and i have seen it happen many times with other issues.


I've seen it happen to and I've also seen people who are AD and getting in trouble for what thier wife said tell them that is BS.. and it is.

For example... A wife on my husbands boat called the CO and flipped out on him calling him all kinds of names ect. They tried to council her husband and he said "I'll bring the chit home to my wife.. but I don't think she's gonna sign it". He went on to say "What my wife says has nothing to do with and and you can't do jack." He then ripped up the paper and walked away. It was dropped because they can't really do anything. They can try, they can say they will, but if you contest and and don't just go with it, they have to let it go.

Ok...I wasn't 100% sure...so I asked DH to get it from the horses' mouth. Our convo is as follows:

Him:Well hi there
Me: Sorry to bother you, but there's a debate raging on the boards and I have to get it from the horses mouth.
Him: What's up?
Me: Can you go to mast for badmouthing the president?
Him: Ummmmmmmmm....hmmmmm... (asks the guys in the office 'hey can we go to mast for bad mouthing the president?")...don't think so, no.
Me: Canyou go to mast if I badmouth the president?
Him: No, absoLUTELY not.
Me: Ok. Thanks honey - bye.

So there you have it. From the horse's mouth.

Ok...I wasn't 100% sure...so I asked DH to get it from the horses' mouth. Our convo is as follows:


Thanks for doing that... That's what I've been saying :lol

Actually I'm almost positive it is a rule somewhere.

A rule stating that you are not allowed to have an opposing opinion?
I disagree. Now, if you are talking about being outright disrespectful, then yes, there are rules about that.
Note the highlighted areas....UCMJ rule applies to commissioned officers.

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

So there you have it. From the horse's mouth.

Thanks for that! There'd definitely be something wrong in the world if we weren't allowed to voice our opinion about the govt. either way :freakout

i wasnt saying that they would go to mast for that. i was trying to just say that they are held responsible for our actions.

for example: DH's last command, 2 of the guys received couseling chits because of their wives protesting the war and going on a tv news report and talking negatively about the prez. no it wasnt mast, but those chits hurt evals. which in turn hurt chances of promotion.

Growing up, I have seen dad's kicked out for thier kids being constantly arrested for truancy and drug use.

Maybe it's just me. I choose to keep most of my negative comments about the prez, when i have them, between close friends and DH and not on public message boards. My dad has friends that are still in the military that work at the Pentagon. After some of the things I have heard, I choose not to take that chance with my husband's career.

I think the bottom line is,

John Kerry is a shitbag and it has nothing to do with president Bush...who I don't personally believe is a shitbag (most of the time), but if I did I would say so. On MySpace. ;)

it doesnt matter if the board is offically associated with the military. the pure fact that there are a lot of military so's on here, constitutes that we are being watched for OPSEC and other issues. how do you think the majority of OPSEC stuff is released. by so's that dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. If OPSEC was a huge issue all the time, and nothing was done about it, this board could be shut down. harsh yes, but for safety, good reason. but just because they are looking for OPSEC stuff, doesnt mean that cant see the rest of the info we post.

THAT is exactly what i'm saying. sonia, you took what i said about the worklace too literally. it was a comparison. by workplace, i mean inthe presence of co-workers and the like. i was trying to get you to think of a similar situation in which you might understand why it is a rule that you can shit all over bush on a MILITARY forum.

I think the bottom line is,

John Kerry is a shitbag and it has nothing to do with president Bush...who I don't personally believe is a shitbag (most of the time), but if I did I would say so. On MySpace. ;)

hahaha sooo true.

because on THERE you wouldn't be offending thousands of military SO's...although we have already discovered it isn't a rule...just COURTESY.

We're not AD though....

true we are not but I would say some won't speak against him though cause it reflects upon our dh.
Not saying I am in or out of that group cause we all know that I am vocal and I feel something needs to be said I will say it :teehee

Well, damn....if you want to criticize the government, then attack the government, not the troops. The troops are just following orders from a fucked-up government.
Education has nothing to do with war....if these men were as educated as they THINK they are, there would be no damn war.

omg...i think i love you! :lol hehe....i couldn't have said it better if i tried!!:yahoo

I'd have to disagree with you. Where is it written in the rules that an AD member can not speak his/her mind about the President and/or the President's decisions? You don't give up your right to free speech just because you are in the military. It may be wise to be cautious to whom you voice your opinion too, but not restricted.

Disagree if you want. My dh has never spoken shit of any of the Presidents!

Disagree if you want. My dh has never spoken shit of any of the Presidents!

There's a difference between having/stating an opposing opinion, and being disrespectful. People can have an opposing opinion and state that opinion without being disrespectful. The rules in the Military have to do with disrespect NOT stating an opposing opinion. It's all about tact.

I understand being watched for OPSEC, but I was under the impression that the freedom to voice your own opinion applied to everyone in the US. I mean, you have a right to bear arms but not to say anything negative about the government? It just seems a little crazy to me.

they are trying to take that right away too.
You know to bear arms

There's a difference between having/stating an opposing opinion, and being disrespectful. People can have an opposing opinion and state that opinion without being disrespectful. The rules in the Military have to do with disrespect NOT stating an opposing opinion. It's all about tact.

and we all know that most of those opposing opinions wouldn't be with tact:teehee

i agree with married2usaf!

they are trying to take that right away too.
You know to bear arms

and if THAT happens....shit's gonna hit the fan.

I agree but too many Americans feel it isn't right
I am not included in that group

and if THAT happens....shit's gonna hit the fan.

That's another thing I don't get - everyone would go crazy if their guns were taken away but they're quite happy with the supposed restrictions on their freedom to voice their opinions?!

Back to the original topic, he has officially apologized. NOW I'll let it go.

This is the important part of his statement (taken from his website):
I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.

I think he should apologize personally to us here on sos.
:)

It's a joke people!

I just don't understand what his point was. He isn't stupid enough to say or insinuate something as blatantly idiotic as the military is full of stupid people. but i don't understand how what he said ties to what he claims he meant?

EXACTLY...It doesnt add up at all...he meant exactly what he said.

I missed most of this. But if I wanted to say that Bush sucked, on here, in the streets, wherever I wanted to, I would. I don't feel a need to at this moment but I would if I felt like it. Personally I like keeping most of my "hot topic" views to myself; unless I'm in an educational setting(or some other open-minded environment) where people are not hesitant to clash on ideas, and learn from one anothers views. What is America without freedom of speech and diversity? I know many people in the military who have been in for many years, don't support Bush, don't vote for him, but love this country for that freedom, resulting in the military being their passion. There's a difference between doing what your boss tells you to do, and what you actually think of them at the end of the day. As for the original topic, Kerry should think about hiring some new writers, and possibly look at what they write before he says it. There is no logic or factual basis behind what he said-as we all know.

I'd have to disagree with you. Where is it written in the rules that an AD member can not speak his/her mind about the President and/or the President's decisions? You don't give up your right to free speech just because you are in the military. It may be wise to be cautious to whom you voice your opinion too, but not restricted.

i disagree...when my husband joined the Navy he took an oath to obey the orders of the commander in cheif...even if he doesnt agree...

I'm sure this rule is in the UCMJ somewhere...

i agree. they took an oath. they can disagree, but they need to follow orders even so. and if they disagree, they know to do so with tact. which i personally think EVERYONE should do.

i disagree...when my husband joined the Navy he took an oath to obey the orders of the commander in cheif...even if he doesnt agree...

I'm sure this rule is in the UCMJ somewhere...

That's what I have said. It's about respect. Orders will be followed whether agreed or disagreed, but NOTHING states that the AD member can not voice their opinion in a tactful manor. You can state differing opinions without being disrespectful.

When I saw it all I could think about was how many people he just pissed off..and he just scewed his votes up!