How would you react? how you would you feel if your child brought this book home? would you read it to them and explain that some kids have parents that are both mommy's or both daddy's? or would you be upset?


SHILOH, Ill. -- A picture book about two male penguins raising a baby penguin is getting a chilly reception among some parents who worry about the book's availability to children -- and the reluctance of school administrators to restrict access to it.
Survey: Gay Penguins Book?
The concerns are the latest involving "And Tango Makes Three," the illustrated children's book based on a true story of two male penguins in New York City's Central Park Zoo that adopted a fertilized egg and raised the chick as their own.
Complaining about the book's homosexual undertones, some parents of Shiloh Elementary School students believe the book -- available to be checked out of the school's library in this 11,000-resident town 20 miles east of St. Louis -- tackles topics their children aren't ready to handle.


Yes No
Yes No
Yes No

Their request: Move the book to the library's regular shelves and restrict it to a section for mature issues, perhaps even requiring parental permission before a child can check it out.
For now, "And Tango Makes Three" will stay put, said school district Superintendent Jennifer Filyaw, though a panel she appointed suggested the book be moved and require parental permission to be checked out. The district's attorney said moving it might be construed as censorship.
Filyaw considers the book "adorable" and age appropriate, written for children ages 4 to 8.
"My feeling is that a library is to serve an entire population," she said. "It means you represent different families in a society -- different religions, different beliefs."
Lilly Del Pinto thought the book looked charming when her 5-year-old daughter brought it home in September. Del Pinto said she was halfway through reading it to her daughter "when the zookeeper said the two penguins must be in love."
"That's when I ended the story," she said.
Del Pinto said her daughter's teacher told her she was unfamiliar with the book, and the school's librarian directed the mother to Filyaw.
"I wasn't armed with pitchforks or anything. I innocently was seeking answers," Del Pinto said, agreeing with Filyaw's belief that pulling the book from the shelves could constitute censorship.
The book has created similar flaps elsewhere. Earlier this year, two parents voiced concerns about the book with librarians at the Rolling Hills' Consolidated Library's branch in the northwest Missouri town of Savannah.
Barbara Read, Rolling Hills' director, has said she consulted with staff members at the Omaha, Neb., and Kansas City zoos and the University of Oklahoma's zoology department, who told her adoptions aren't unusual in the world of penguins.
said the book was then moved to the nonfiction section because it was based on actual events. In that section, she said, there was less of a chance that the book would "blindside" someone.


http://www.wlwt.com/education/10344415/detail.html

What the heck? What difference does it make? DS has tons of books and some of them have families in them, some are about mom and dad. We don't hear gay parents whining about them now do we??? Parent's really should have other things to worry about than a book about a family that just happens to have gay parents. I think it is great for kids in schools who DO have gay parents as well. We have gay friends, DS will know early on that to us it is "just another family".

thats exactly how i feel..... i was just wondering if anyone else felt differently.... i think these parents just have nothing else to bitch about

I don't think it matters if a child is raised by gay couples or staright couples! The main thing is the child and How they are Raised! It's just some lonely woemn who has to through up a problem! Damn!

I think that kind of book should require parental consent.

I think that kind of book should require parental consent.

I can't agree with you! I feel that every child should see the real world for what it is! It's not a porn!

I think that kind of book should require parental consent.

:agree

its one thing to be okay with a gay couple raising a child and nothing being wrong with a child raised by a gay couple but if some parents are strongly opposed to it because of their religious beliefs or whatever then the book needs parental consent. if a charity doesn't accept jesus dolls because they might fall into the wrong hands--hands of a muslim, buddist, jewish family--and might offend someone why is it different because its a book?

Like it or not, our children WILL be exposed to it sooner or later. It's no longer uncommon to see homosexual couples.

Hmmm I dunno. Thats a tough tough call. While yes I know homosexualty is common now days, while yes I know my child will learn about it eventually, while yes I know it happens, while yes I dont hold it against someone if they are homosexual, it doesnt mean I agree 100% with it. KWIM? I think it varies on the age of the child, if the parents want to teach it, etc. So yeah I think parental consent is warranted in some ways in this situation.

Like it or not we live in a soceity that has NUMEROUS different beliefs. As parents we are to sculpt and raise our children to the best of our ability. Protecting them things we see as unfit or whatever. Not that its the same but would you want a picture book about a women, down on her luck, needing money, so she sells herself on the streets? Yeah I know that is a HARSH and FAR out there comparision but the fact remains that although thats real life, although it happens, it is up to us as parents to watch what our children learn or when they learn it. Learning about gay couples is fine. But I think it is at the parents discretion. Just like religion. Which is EVERYWHERE. But it is the parents discretion on what is taught and when and how much KWIM? Same in this case in my opinion.

Hmmm I dunno. Thats a tough tough call. While yes I know homosexualty is common now days, while yes I know my child will learn about it eventually, while yes I know it happens, while yes I dont hold it against someone if they are homosexual, it doesnt mean I agree 100% with it. KWIM? I think it varies on the age of the child, if the parents want to teach it, etc. So yeah I think parental consent is warranted in some ways in this situation.

Very well said. Age should absolutely be a factor & parents should have a say in when & if their child will be able to understand.

Hmmm I dunno. Thats a tough tough call. While yes I know homosexualty is common now days, while yes I know my child will learn about it eventually, while yes I know it happens, while yes I dont hold it against someone if they are homosexual, it doesnt mean I agree 100% with it. KWIM? I think it varies on the age of the child, if the parents want to teach it, etc. So yeah I think parental consent is warranted in some ways in this situation.

Like it or not we live in a soceity that has NUMEROUS different beliefs. As parents we are to sculpt and raise our children to the best of our ability. Protecting them things we see as unfit or whatever. Not that its the same but would you want a picture book about a women, down on her luck, needing money, so she sells herself on the streets? Yeah I know that is a HARSH and FAR out there comparision but the fact remains that although thats real life, although it happens, it is up to us as parents to watch what our children learn or when they learn it. Learning about gay couples is fine. But I think it is at the parents discretion. Just like religion. Which is EVERYWHERE. But it is the parents discretion on what is taught and when and how much KWIM? Same in this case in my opinion.

thank you said much better than i could've

As a child, no she wouldn't be reading that.

I agree completely w/ Kristi. If 2 adults want to live their lives like that, than that's not my business, but it's definetely my business what my child reads or learns.

When she's older and can understand, that's one thing, but not as a child.

I don't know why they had to take a true story and turn it into something homosexual to begin with but I agree with what Kaymara said.

Hmmm I dunno. Thats a tough tough call. While yes I know homosexualty is common now days, while yes I know my child will learn about it eventually, while yes I know it happens, while yes I dont hold it against someone if they are homosexual, it doesnt mean I agree 100% with it. KWIM? I think it varies on the age of the child, if the parents want to teach it, etc. So yeah I think parental consent is warranted in some ways in this situation.

Like it or not we live in a soceity that has NUMEROUS different beliefs. As parents we are to sculpt and raise our children to the best of our ability. Protecting them things we see as unfit or whatever. Not that its the same but would you want a picture book about a women, down on her luck, needing money, so she sells herself on the streets? Yeah I know that is a HARSH and FAR out there comparision but the fact remains that although thats real life, although it happens, it is up to us as parents to watch what our children learn or when they learn it. Learning about gay couples is fine. But I think it is at the parents discretion. Just like religion. Which is EVERYWHERE. But it is the parents discretion on what is taught and when and how much KWIM? Same in this case in my opinion.

I agree with you 100%. :agree

I can't agree with you! I feel that every child should see the real world for what it is! It's not a porn!

Yes, but what ever happened to parents being able to teach their kids 'the real world' at their own discretion? There are some things that kids in elementary school just should not really need to know about.

Yes, but what ever happened to parents being able to teach their kids 'the real world' at their own discretion?

The difference is that today, people keep their children in a bubble! They don't see reality for what it is until they are out on their own, by then it's a little too late. They already have certain views and opinions (not of their own) ingrained into their heads. If you keep the realities of homosexuality out of thier lives for too long, then once they find out (more than likely on thier own) it won't be a pretty sight. They grew up with a certain "normal" and homosexuality will be well out of their brain's reach to comprehend that people are in fact different, even when it comes to love and sex. Kids who are taught a certain norm and not the rest, come to hate the rest. That results in hateful adults.

What the heck? What difference does it make? DS has tons of books and some of them have families in them, some are about mom and dad. We don't hear gay parents whining about them now do we??? Parent's really should have other things to worry about than a book about a family that just happens to have gay parents. I think it is great for kids in schools who DO have gay parents as well. We have gay friends, DS will know early on that to us it is "just another family".

I second that... well said!

The difference is that today, people keep their children in a bubble! They don't see reality for what it is until they are out on their own, by then it's a little too late. They already have certain views and opinions (not of their own) ingrained into their heads. If you keep the realities of homosexuality out of thier lives for too long, then once they find out (more than likely on thier own) it won't be a pretty sight. They grew up with a certain "normal" and homosexuality will be well out of their brain's reach to comprehend that people are in fact different, even when it comes to love and sex. Kids who are taught a certain norm and not the rest, come to hate the rest. That results in hateful adults.

This isn't entirely true. I was "raised" to hate anyone who wasn't white. I'd love to tell you about the beating I got from my step father because I had a lawn-mowing job with a black friend of mine, and we split the earnings 50/50, even though I provided the lawn mower and weed eater. I would love to tell you about it, but I can't remember it from being beaten unconcious. This didn't make me hate black people, it made me hate HIM. To this day, even as he's been buried for four years, I still despise the man for his "beliefs".

Trying to teach your child the delicate moral and socially repsonsible quirks of the American population is a lesson in patience that even Ghandi would have balked at. We have so many idioscynchrocies in our society that trying to explain EVERY single belief and lifestyle is practically impossible. So we make our decisions on what to teach our children as less-complicated as we can: We teach them what they need to know for their age. You can't explain what "knee-jerk politics" are to a six year old. They'll understand your words, but not the message. When it comes time to explain matters of the heart to my children, I'll do my best to remain unbiased, regardless of my personal beliefs. I'll do the same for relegion, money and any other questionable topic that arises. But until the time I can explain something to them in a means that they'll understand, I'll continue to teach them the MORAL and LOGICAL paths. That's how I've lived my life, and that's all I know.

The difference is that today, people keep their children in a bubble! They don't see reality for what it is until they are out on their own, by then it's a little too late. They already have certain views and opinions (not of their own) ingrained into their heads. If you keep the realities of homosexuality out of thier lives for too long, then once they find out (more than likely on thier own) it won't be a pretty sight. They grew up with a certain "normal" and homosexuality will be well out of their brain's reach to comprehend that people are in fact different, even when it comes to love and sex. Kids who are taught a certain norm and not the rest, come to hate the rest. That results in hateful adults.

I think that kids know things they don't need to know way too early. They don't need to know about homosexuality before they even know about sexuality.

This isn't entirely true. I was "raised" to hate anyone who wasn't white. I'd love to tell you about the beating I got from my step father because I had a lawn-mowing job with a black friend of mine, and we split the earnings 50/50, even though I provided the lawn mower and weed eater. I would love to tell you about it, but I can't remember it from being beaten unconcious. This didn't make me hate black people, it made me hate HIM. To this day, even as he's been buried for four years, I still despise the man for his "beliefs".

Trying to teach your child the delicate moral and socially repsonsible quirks of the American population is a lesson in patience that even Ghandi would have balked at. We have so many idioscynchrocies in our society that trying to explain EVERY single belief and lifestyle is practically impossible. So we make our decisions on what to teach our children as less-complicated as we can: We teach them what they need to know for their age. You can't explain what "knee-jerk politics" are to a six year old. They'll understand your words, but not the message. When it comes time to explain matters of the heart to my children, I'll do my best to remain unbiased, regardless of my personal beliefs. I'll do the same for relegion, money and any other questionable topic that arises. But until the time I can explain something to them in a means that they'll understand, I'll continue to teach them the MORAL and LOGICAL paths. That's how I've lived my life, and that's all I know.

:agree :yeehaw

parkwoodmom i agree with you too

This isn't entirely true. I was "raised" to hate anyone who wasn't white. I'd love to tell you about the beating I got from my step father because I had a lawn-mowing job with a black friend of mine, and we split the earnings 50/50, even though I provided the lawn mower and weed eater. I would love to tell you about it, but I can't remember it from being beaten unconcious. This didn't make me hate black people, it made me hate HIM. To this day, even as he's been buried for four years, I still despise the man for his "beliefs".

Trying to teach your child the delicate moral and socially repsonsible quirks of the American population is a lesson in patience that even Ghandi would have balked at. We have so many idioscynchrocies in our society that trying to explain EVERY single belief and lifestyle is practically impossible. So we make our decisions on what to teach our children as less-complicated as we can: We teach them what they need to know for their age. You can't explain what "knee-jerk politics" are to a six year old. They'll understand your words, but not the message. When it comes time to explain matters of the heart to my children, I'll do my best to remain unbiased, regardless of my personal beliefs. I'll do the same for relegion, money and any other questionable topic that arises. But until the time I can explain something to them in a means that they'll understand, I'll continue to teach them the MORAL and LOGICAL paths. That's how I've lived my life, and that's all I know.


So....you are saying that a child will understand that mommy and daddy love eachother and that suzy's mom and dad love eachother but he won't understand that bobby's two dad's love eachother? :no That just sounds homophobic to me. (no offense) A six year old understands what love is to a degree. If she's old enough to realize that mom and dad love eachother and suzy's mom and dad love eachother, she is definetally old enough to understand that bobby's parents love eachother. You don't have to tell her how exactly bobby's dad's have sex but to teach her love isn't harmful. It is a pretty cruel world when the knowledge is love is banned from a child's life and "education".

i don't think hatetank was saying that he wouldn't teach his child that love is good. i believe his point was that you can tell a child that they love each other but a child is still not going to know that it is any different than 2 sisters loving each other. a 6 year old doesn't understand that two women are capable of loving each other the same way that mommy and daddy love each other....at least none of the 6 year olds that i know could understand that concept

i dunno maybe i have the completely wrong interpretation.

i don't think hatetank was saying that he wouldn't teach his child that love is good. i believe his point was that you can tell a child that they love each other but a child is still not going to know that it is any different than 2 sisters loving each other. a 6 year old doesn't understand that two women are capable of loving each other the same way that mommy and daddy love each other....at least none of the 6 year olds that i know could understand that concept

i dunno maybe i have the completely wrong interpretation.

A six year old knows what love is. They know what affection is as well, maybe not the word itself but they know what it is. He was saying that he would only teach a child "certain love." Not love in general which is very saddening.

So we make our decisions on what to teach our children as less-complicated as we can: We teach them what they need to know for their age. You can't explain what "knee-jerk politics" are to a six year old. They'll understand your words, but not the message.

But until the time I can explain something to them in a means that they'll understand, I'll continue to teach them the MORAL and LOGICAL paths.

That's what I was trying to say :thumbsup

And I agree w/ what parkwoodmom said.

So....you are saying that a child will understand that mommy and daddy love eachother and that suzy's mom and dad love eachother but he won't understand that bobby's two dad's love eachother? :no That just sounds homophobic to me. (no offense)

Actually, what I'm saying is that I can SHOW my child what mommy and daddy mean by love. I just can't do that with Bobby's two dads. Children react to what they see and interpret moreso than what they hear. That sense is only heightened as we grow older. Most of us don't believe half of what we see on TV or read in the papers. We simply "feel" a certain way about it. It has nothing to do with being homophobic at all. It has everything to do with being able to SHOW love. Now, if I were to start making out with guy friends who come over to the house all the time, THEN I could show my child that love knows no sex. Since I can't do that, I'll teach him what I know.

a child is still not going to know that it is any different than 2 sisters loving each other. a 6 year old doesn't understand that two women are capable of loving each other the same way that mommy and daddy love each other....at least none of the 6 year olds that i know could understand that concept

That's the perfect analogy for what I wanted to convey. Thanks!

Actually, what I'm saying is that I can SHOW my child what mommy and daddy mean by love. I just can't do that with Bobby's two dads. Children react to what they see and interpret moreso than what they hear. That sense is only heightened as we grow older. Most of us don't believe half of what we see on TV or read in the papers. We simply "feel" a certain way about it. It has nothing to do with being homophobic at all. It has everything to do with being able to SHOW love. Now, if I were to start making out with guy friends who come over to the house all the time, THEN I could show my child that love knows no sex. Since I can't do that, I'll teach him what I know.

But the two men's love is the same as yours. Sorry, good arguement but I just don't get it. We are in totally different worlds on this subject it seems. To me the love is the same, to you it is different.

Well I have to agree that it should be available with parents approval.
The public school teaches kids things now days earlier than I think some of it should.
Example my 2nd grader (before I started Homeschool) came home one day and went into graphic details about what the men on the Arizona and such endured. He went into great detail about Pearl Harbor.
A few days later he went into great detail about 9/11. and I do mean GREAT detail.
That pisses me off. My kids know about 9/11 but on a level that is appropriate for their ages. And the sad part was there was a child in his class whos father was killed in the Pentagon. So that mother was more pissed than I cause her child had to endure that pain again.
I was pissed cause in this lifestyle I don't feel that my child should be told of people jumping out of windows, being burned to death or being burried alive!

But the two men's love is the same as yours. Sorry, good arguement but I just don't get it. We are in totally different worlds on this subject it seems. To me the love is the same, to you it is different.

Nope, same page, Different age group. Love is love, regardless of borders. Now, to your 6 year old, explain the difference between sister love and mommy/daddy love. And you can't use sex, because the 6 year old won't understand that. If you do happen to get the child to understand, you're suddenly going to have to explain to them how anyone can have sex with anyone as long as their in love. Good luck!

Nope, same page, Different age group. Love is love, regardless of borders. Now, to your 6 year old, explain the difference between sister love and mommy/daddy love. And you can't use sex, because the 6 year old won't understand that. If you do happen to get the child to understand, you're suddenly going to have to explain to them how anyone can have sex with anyone as long as their in love. Good luck!

I didn't say that they knew the difference between loving this person and another such as parents and sibling. I said that they know what love is in general. They aren't so stupid that they don't know the feeling of love and that is what should be taught. These two men love eachother like mommy and daddy love eachother. What is so confusing about saying that?

I personally want my children to know love and acceptance. Knowing the my dh and I love each other doesn't require them knowing about sex. I don't see how them knowing that Bob and Bob love each other would require me having to sit down and say well here's how they do it. They just know what love is and I want them to be accepting of the fact that love comes in all diff forms. Exposing them to that doesn't not mean that I will have to teach my almost 6 year old about sex.
At any rate though back to the topic. Depsite that I feel that way I still think that is something that the parent should have to agree to. Like it or not there are alot of people who are NOT ok with homosexuaility (sorry sp) and they should not have to be forced to expose there child to it until they are ready. I personally don't belive in god. I wouldn't want bible studies at his school. Eventually my kids will want to know and I will def direct them to someone who can better educate them on it. But until that point I don't think religion should be shoved on my child without my consent and I'm sure some parents feel the same way about homosexuaility.

:agree

its one thing to be okay with a gay couple raising a child and nothing being wrong with a child raised by a gay couple but if some parents are strongly opposed to it because of their religious beliefs or whatever then the book needs parental consent. if a charity doesn't accept jesus dolls because they might fall into the wrong hands--hands of a muslim, buddist, jewish family--and might offend someone why is it different because its a book?

I agree.. We're going to have to explain one day why her auntie has a wife and not a husband, not every family will though... I think books like that should have an age level assigned to them and it should be left to the parent's discretion as to when to broach that subject.

I didn't say that they knew the difference between loving this person and another such as parents and sibling. I said that they know what love is in general. They aren't so stupid that they don't know the feeling of love and that is what should be taught. These two men love eachother like mommy and daddy love eachother. What is so confusing about saying that?

To us, it's not confusing to understand. To a child, this will be interpreted as "it's ok to love anyone like mommy and daddy". This train of thought will eventually become "it's ok to have sex with anyone," which may or may not be the case, depending on who the child is trying to have sex with. While your child may be "open", there are a lot of people who aren't. To your "open" child, this may seem like the person is unnatural, since that way of thinking is all he was taught. The other person feels exactly the same way. Neither are homophobe/straightophobe, but they view each other as unnatural. It's hard to respect someone when you think they're a freak of nature, regardless of their sexual orientation.

So, to bypass all of this societal crap, I'll teach my kids what mommy/daddy love is for no other reason than that's all I know. If I raise my kids right, I won't have to have a discussion with them on this topic, because they will have come to their own conclusions. I've never once had a "talk" about being gay with either of my parents. We never had to. It's unnatural to me, but I don't go out of my way to bash gays and tell them how wrong they are. To my children, it may NOT be ok to be gay. I can't make that call.

Like it or not, our children WILL be exposed to it sooner or later. It's no longer uncommon to see homosexual couples.
I agree but it should be up to the parent as to when and how to introduce this to their children.

But the two men's love is the same as yours. Sorry, good arguement but I just don't get it. We are in totally different worlds on this subject it seems. To me the love is the same, to you it is different.

I really don't think the issue is people loving each other. It's the reality that I as a parent really do not feel that my 10 year old, let alone a 5 /6 year old, should even KNOW about what sexuality, homosexual or other, is. I should be the one to decide that. If my child asks me a question about her friend who has 2 dads, or 2 moms, that's different than her checking a book out of the library and having it put out there.

To us, it's not confusing to understand. To a child, this will be interpreted as "it's ok to love anyone like mommy and daddy". This train of thought will eventually become "it's ok to have sex with anyone," which may or may not be the case, depending on who the child is trying to have sex with. While your child may be "open", there are a lot of people who aren't. To your "open" child, this may seem like the person is unnatural, since that way of thinking is all he was taught. The other person feels exactly the same way. Neither are homophobe/straightophobe, but they view each other as unnatural. It's hard to respect someone when you think they're a freak of nature, regardless of their sexual orientation.

So, to bypass all of this societal crap, I'll teach my kids what mommy/daddy love is for no other reason than that's all I know. If I raise my kids right, I won't have to have a discussion with them on this topic, because they will have come to their own conclusions. I've never once had a "talk" about being gay with either of my parents. We never had to. It's unnatural to me, but I don't go out of my way to bash gays and tell them how wrong they are. To my children, it may NOT be ok to be gay. I can't make that call.

You sound so much like my parents these days it's scary! Whatever vibe you give off about homosexuals, your children will pick it up, even if you don't bash gays openly in front of them.

I really don't think the issue is people loving each other. It's the reality that I as a parent really do not feel that my 10 year old, let alone a 5 /6 year old, should even KNOW about what sexuality, homosexual or other, is. I should be the one to decide that. If my child asks me a question about her friend who has 2 dads, or 2 moms, that's different than her checking a book out of the library and having it put out there.

A 10 year old shouldn't know about sexuality? Wow! Do you really think children are that...dumb? I asked all of the questions after walking in on my parents when I was 7 or 8. I understood and wasn't traumatized. :hehe You should be the one to decide? Then I assume you are against health classes? In the state of Florida you take your first health class (sex talk included) in 6th grade. Are you going to picket against that?

If parents aren't going to be good parents and inform their children of the world, someone has to.

A 10 year old shouldn't know about sexuality? Wow! Do you really think children are that...dumb? I asked all of the questions after walking in on my parents when I was 7 or 8. I understood and wasn't traumatized. :hehe You should be the one to decide? Then I assume you are against health classes? In the state of Florida you take your first health class (sex talk included) in 6th grade. Are you going to picket against that?

If parents aren't going to be good parents and inform their children of the world, someone has to.

My 10 year old should not be reading about sexual things in a library book from school. Yes, she understands her body - but she does not need to know at age 10 about men sleeping with men, women sleeping with women or even men sleeping with women. Not age appropriate.

6th grade is not 10 years old. I agree with school health classes because there are parents that do not have the appropriate discussions AT HOME with their children. My daughter will have the information taught in any health class BY ME prior to her having the class. You assume because I choose to not inform my child about homosexual activity that I am not being a good parent? She's not really even old enough to understand mom and dad having sex - let alone two men or two women. I am a great mom, and I don't think that children need any kind of sexuality, homosexual or heterosexual, thrown in their face in a library book about penguins. Having a class in school - which by the way requires parental consent to attend - and checking a book out of the libary are two different situations. My child will be informed about AGE APPROPRIATE issues of sex. She does not need to hear about the fact that some men choose to sleep with men, and some women choose to sleep with women. She will learn that babies come from mom and dad having sex.

My 10 year old should not be reading about sexual things in a library book from school. Yes, she understands her body - but she does not need to know at age 10 about men sleeping with men, women sleeping with women or even men sleeping with women. Not age appropriate.

6th grade is not 10 years old. I agree with school health classes because there are parents that do not have the appropriate discussions AT HOME with their children. My daughter will have the information taught in any health class BY ME prior to her having the class. You assume because I choose to not inform my child about homosexual activity that I am not being a good parent? She's not really even old enough to understand mom and dad having sex - let alone two men or two women. I am a great mom, and I don't think that children need any kind of sexuality, homosexual or heterosexual, thrown in their face in a library book about penguins. Having a class in school - which by the way requires parental consent to attend - and checking a book out of the libary are two different situations. My child will be informed about AGE APPROPRIATE issues of sex. She does not need to hear about the fact that some men choose to sleep with men, and some women choose to sleep with women. She will learn that babies come from mom and dad having sex.

Oversensitive parents! The book isn't a sex book. It is about a family for goodness sakes! You act like it is going to teach your child all about getting it up the :censored. lol Then I will also assume that your child doesn't have any books about hetero families? No parents or thier relationship included? When I was saying bad parents I was talking about those who don't teach their child...as in refuse to teach their children about sex (hetero/homo), even up into the pre-teen years. As a teenager I had to inform a few of my friends about sex. Sad that at 14-16 years of age, thier parents hadn't discussed it with them. That is what I was talking about. Of course, parents should choose their own time to have "the conversation" of birds and the bees with thier kids but a book about love and family? I still don't get it. With me you really are just beating a dead horse. I don't see a book on love and a family requiring a sex talk. But eh, to each thier own.

A 10 year old shouldn't know about sexuality? Wow! Do you really think children are that...dumb? I asked all of the questions after walking in on my parents when I was 7 or 8. I understood and wasn't traumatized. :hehe You should be the one to decide? Then I assume you are against health classes? In the state of Florida you take your first health class (sex talk included) in 6th grade. Are you going to picket against that?

If parents aren't going to be good parents and inform their children of the world, someone has to.

And it is noone elses place to teach my child/children that.
Who are you to decide that ALL kids have to know so much at such a young age?

I think it should be up to the parents as well. It's them raising their kids not the world so it should be up to them. Some parents might be fine with it while others wont be... neither is wrong they are just different so whether you choose to or not is up to you. I dont know why anyone is getting upset over one person choosing to let their kids know or not to let them know if it's not your kid then let it go. :shrug

MY god! It's just a book! They are not talking about sex! Not talking about Real people. If a kid figures out that there gay! well Good for them! But This is The day Of many changes and in real life there are Gay people! Because they love the same sex dosen't make them Bad! Dosen't change who they are! They are still Human!

I really don't think the issue is people loving each other. It's the reality that I as a parent really do not feel that my 10 year old, let alone a 5 /6 year old, should even KNOW about what sexuality, homosexual or other, is. I should be the one to decide that. If my child asks me a question about her friend who has 2 dads, or 2 moms, that's different than her checking a book out of the library and having it put out there.

Then dosn't let them read the Book, but allow me to buy it for my child!

I want my kids make there own minds up and there choices! I'm not going to pull ther wool over either of my kids eyes........... Thats were you learn hate and confussion!

Then dosn't let them read the Book, but allow me to buy it for my child!

no where was it stated that you can't buy it for your child
most of us are just saying that there should be and age requirement and adult consent to check it out

Then dosn't let them read the Book, but allow me to buy it for my child!

Just because you agree with it, doesnt mean that i want my kids looking at it without me knowing. there should def be a age restriction and/or parental consent.

you know the more I think about it. The more I get frustrated. I mean it's a book about PENGUINS. Nowhere in the book does it say they are gay or that they are having sex. If aything it just shows that one penguin befriend another penguin and together they are raising an abandoned infant. So how that makes them gay penguins is beyond me. No kid is going to read that (unless he's older like 12- or up) and go hey mom hey dad are those penguins gay. Or hey mom hey dad why are two male penguins raising that kid are they married? If anything the child might say where's the penguins mommy and then you say the penguin was abandonded so his mommy isn't there.

you know the more I think about it. The more I get frustrated. I mean it's a book about PENGUINS. Nowhere in the book does it say they are gay or that they are having sex. If aything it just shows that one penguin befriend another penguin and together they are raising an abandoned infant. So how that makes them gay penguins is beyond me. No kid is going to read that (unless he's older like 12- or up) and go hey mom hey dad are those penguins gay. Or hey mom hey dad why are two male penguins raising that kid are they married? If anything the child might say where's the penguins mommy and then you say the penguin was abandonded so his mommy isn't there.

I guess thats what I was trying to say! Ugh! But my opinion is mine and I don't think being Gay is a issue! They arn't running aroung FUCKING infront of everyone! They are no diffrent then any one else except what they do behind close doors , just like anyone else!

I guess thats what I was trying to say! Ugh! But my opinion is mine and I don't think being Gay is a issue! They arn't running aroung FUCKING infront of everyone! They are no diffrent then any one else except what they do behind close doors , just like anyone else!

Just so you know I'm very very pro gay rights. I have nothing against homosexuals. I just meant that the more I think about it the more I think peple are freaking out over nothing b/c of the supposedly gay undertones of a book that's about penguins :lmao it just seems so absurd.

I guess thats what I was trying to say! Ugh! But my opinion is mine and I don't think being Gay is a issue! They arn't running aroung FUCKING infront of everyone! They are no diffrent then any one else except what they do behind close doors , just like anyone else!

Actually, the article says "Del Pinto said she was halfway through reading it to her daughter "when the zookeeper said the two penguins must be in love."
which is the nature of the debate. Having a book aimed at children that will inevitably bring questions that parents are incapable of or flat out refuse to, explain to a child.

Like it or not, our children WILL be exposed to it sooner or later. It's no longer uncommon to see homosexual couples.

That doesn't make homosexuality right....

And I would fight this book before I would fight to have Harry potter taken off the shelves like so many have :no

I don't see what the big deal is....its a damn book...it's not porn. Christ.

sorry i started such a heated debated.... i feel bad now:(

Don't feel bad.

Actually, the article says "Del Pinto said she was halfway through reading it to her daughter "when the zookeeper said the two penguins must be in love."
which is the nature of the debate. Having a book aimed at children that will inevitably bring questions that parents are incapable of or flat out refuse to, explain to a child.

again they are penguins.

That doesn't make homosexuality right....

That's honestly the most hurtful and most obnoxious thing I've seen in a long time.

I don't see what the big deal is....its a damn book...it's not porn. Christ.

Well, to some people, having the schools teach their children to accept homosexuality as normal is a big deal.

How about a book backing abortion and explaining it to little kids? They're exposed to that all the time on TV and the news.. What's the big deal?

That's honestly the most hurtful and most obnoxious thing I've seen in a long time.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions
Just like I am sure there are things that you don't approve or condone but she does


and don't feel bad about starting a heated debate after all that is what the debate forum is for:teehee

But everyone is entitled to their opinions
Just like I am sure there are things that you don't approve or condone but she does


and don't feel bad about starting a heated debate after all that is what the debate forum is for:teehee

You're right everyone is entitled to there opinions but you have to be nice in the way you word it. I don't think I have yet to word something in a manner that would offend anyone and if I have I do apologize. I've said in many topics that I don't feel that way but it's JMO and I respect other's rights to have opinions. I'm new here so maybe I shouldn't even be getting involved in the debates yet.

Well, to some people, having the schools teach their children to accept homosexuality as normal is a big deal.

How about a book backing abortion and explaining it to little kids? They're exposed to that all the time on TV and the news.. What's the big deal?

If you read my first post you'd see that I said I can UNDERSTAND how others would have a problem with it. Then I said that I didn't get it b/c it was just a book about penguins I just didn't understand. I never said yes put in all schools make it required reading. I said that I understood how others would have a problem with it.

I guess I'll have to read the book.

You're right everyone is entitled to there opinions but you have to be nice in the way you word it. I don't think I have yet to word something in a manner that would offend anyone and if I have I do apologize. I've said in many topics that I don't feel that way but it's JMO and I respect other's rights to have opinions. I'm new here so maybe I shouldn't even be getting involved in the debates yet.

this is the debate forum if you look at many threads people don't care what the tone is or how it is worded etc.. You just go with the debate!
I didn't say you said anything cross and honestly she didn't offend me the way it was worded

Well, to some people, having the schools teach their children to accept homosexuality as normal is a big deal.

How about a book backing abortion and explaining it to little kids? They're exposed to that all the time on TV and the news.. What's the big deal?


OK, well, what is normal? That term is so relative.....just because you believe homosexuality isn't right doesn't mean its wrong....that's just close-minded thinking, and quite offensive, if you ask me. :no :mumble

There is a big difference between homosexuality and abortion.....but I'm not going to go into it because I'd like to stick to the original topic and not start an debate about something irrelevant and totally on another scale.

OK, well, what is normal? That term is so relative.....just because you believe homosexuality isn't right doesn't mean its wrong....that's just close-minded thinking, and quite offensive, if you ask me. :no :mumble

There is a big difference between homosexuality and abortion.....but I'm not going to go into it because I'd like to stick to the original topic and not start an debate about something irrelevant and totally on another scale.


Absolutely agree!

this is the debate forum if you look at many threads people don't care what the tone is or how it is worded etc.. You just go with the debate!
I didn't say you said anything cross and honestly she didn't offend me the way it was worded

As long as I don't piss anyone off..LOL.
She did offend me but that's JMO.

OK, well, what is normal? That term is so relative.....just because you believe homosexuality isn't right doesn't mean its wrong....that's just close-minded thinking, and quite offensive, if you ask me. :no :mumble

There is a big difference between homosexuality and abortion.....but I'm not going to go into it because I'd like to stick to the original topic and not start an debate about something irrelevant and totally on another scale.

Here we go again YOU are offended of what she said, she was offended of the book if it were to wind up in her childs hands.
What is the damn difference????

again they are penguins.

And the book "Animal Farm" was just about some barnyard animals that could talk, too? The characters of any book are merely vessels for the writers message, whether or not the writer is concious of this fact.

As long as I don't piss anyone off..LOL.
She did offend me but that's JMO.

Exactly that is my point what offends you may not offend me and vise versa
that is what I was saying
we couldn't have debates if the world was such a happy go lucky place and everyone agreed with everything.
Actually it would be pretty boring to live that way

And the book "Animal Farm" was just about some barnyard animals that could talk, too? The characters of any book are merely vessels for the writers message, whether or not the writer is concious of this fact.

Can't say I've read Animal Farm. What was it about?

And the book "Animal Farm" was just about some barnyard animals that could talk, too? The characters of any book are merely vessels for the writers message, whether or not the writer is concious of this fact.

BINGO

Exactly that is my point what offends you may not offend me and vise versa
that is what I was saying
we couldn't have debates if the world was such a happy go lucky place and everyone agreed with everything.
Actually it would be pretty boring to live that way

You're right I agree it would boring if we all agreed.

Here we go again YOU are offended of what she said, she was offended of the book if it were to wind up in her childs hands.
What is the damn difference????

I'm not going to bother to break down my reasons as to why I was offended....I was offended, point blank, and I said something about it. Last time I checked, it was OK to do that without someone bringing me out about it.
You don't have to try to instigate an arguement.

What is the damn difference????

LMAO... :lol The difference IS my opinion is different then someone else's, so that makes me offensive and wrong to them..:teehee

Wasn't someone talking about "tolerance and acceptance" in a related thread? Oh, wait...that doesn't include me..:lmao

Oh, well... Thanks anyways Breezy..

animal farm was written by george orwell to condemn the authoritarian regime of governments in the world at the time the book was published. that is the underlying message. it is typically assigned to 8th grade and up--it was in my jr. high.

orwell's animals overthrow the farmers and they take over the farm and i believe it was the pigs that became the authoritarian regime over the other animals, turning them out and sending them to be killed when they were past their prime, etc

You're right everyone is entitled to there opinions but you have to be nice in the way you word it. I don't think I have yet to word something in a manner that would offend anyone and if I have I do apologize. I've said in many topics that I don't feel that way but it's JMO and I respect other's rights to have opinions. I'm new here so maybe I shouldn't even be getting involved in the debates yet.

You'll find that in topics of morality, when evidence and facts are questionable, most debates will devolve into a literary tongue lashing. Without tangible, proven and documented facts to fuel a debate, people will try to press their personal opinion as acceptable evidence. Homosexuality is one of these topics.

Because of this lack of evidence (read: a "thing" that we can place blame or acceptance onto same-sex couples) this will continue to be an argument of morality and beliefs. When one's beliefs are questioned, the gloves come off. Take nothing to offense, as no one here would be on the debate boards unless they were comfortable with their morals being tested. But, as always, tact is a requirement :)

That was a great book. I love Orwell..

LMAO... :lol The difference IS my opinion is different then someone else's, so that makes me offensive and wrong to them..:teehee

Wasn't someone talking about "tolerance and acceptance" in a related thread? Oh, wait...that doesn't include me..:lmao

Oh, well... Thanks anyways Breezy..

I could care less what you're opinion on the matter is it's how you stated it. And yeah I said tolerance and acceptance and yep that includes you. And you really don't have to say someone I know it's me :) At any rate this is like beating a dead horse you don't agree with it I do. The point of the thread was should it be shown to all kids and I stated no not without the parents consent.

That was a great book. I love Orwell..

did i summarize okay?

I'm not going to bother to break down my reasons as to why I was offended....I was offended, point blank, and I said something about it. Last time I checked, it was OK to do that without someone bringing me out about it.
You don't have to try to instigate an arguement.

I didn't but you don't post in a debate if you don't want to be questioned!
So call it what you will
you were offended I have been offended by several things you have said too at some point on this board, so I said something.
the whole point in a debate!

You'll find that in topics of morality, when evidence and facts are questionable, most debates will devolve into a literary tongue lashing. Without tangible, proven and documented facts to fuel a debate, people will try to press their personal opinion as acceptable evidence. Homosexuality is one of these topics.

Because of this lack of evidence (read: a "thing" that we can place blame or acceptance onto same-sex couples) this will continue to be an argument of morality and beliefs. When one's beliefs are questioned, the gloves come off. Take nothing to offense, as no one here would be on the debate boards unless they were comfortable with their morals being tested. But, as always, tact is a requirement :)

Thanks :)

animal farm was written by george orwell to condemn the authoritarian regime of governments in the world at the time the book was published. that is the underlying message. it is typically assigned to 8th grade and up--it was in my jr. high.

orwell's animals overthrow the farmers and they take over the farm and i believe it was the pigs that became the authoritarian regime over the other animals, turning them out and sending them to be killed when they were past their prime, etc

I'll have to read it! I'm surprised I never have.

LMAO... :lol The difference IS my opinion is different then someone else's, so that makes me offensive and wrong to them..:teehee

Wasn't someone talking about "tolerance and acceptance" in a related thread? Oh, wait...that doesn't include me..:lmao

Oh, well... Thanks anyways Breezy..

NO biggie I guess some are entitled to opinions but the rest of us aren't lol.
It's all good:wink

I'll have to read it! I'm surprised I never have.

if you've got a half-priced books or a re-sale place they usually have it fairly cheap. try and it them after the end of the school year when teachers are re-selling

if you've got a half-priced books or a re-sale place they usually have it fairly cheap. try and it them after the end of the school year when teachers are re-selling
Or check it out from the library.

did i summarize okay?

From my hazy memory of reading the book about 30 times in Junior High, I'd say that was a pretty good summary! The multiple-layered innuendo in that book is simply amazing. People don't write like that anymore.

Or check it out from the library.

i totally forgot about the library :teehee

i guess because i can't use the library here by my house because i'm in ft. bend county and the library is in harris so its like a $75 charge to get a card plus because we are out of district a monthly charge. the fort bend county library is about 45 minutes away

I didn't but you don't post in a debate if you don't want to be questioned!
So call it what you will
you were offended I have been offended by several things you have said too at some point on this board, so I said something.
the whole point in a debate!


There were other people besides me, who were offended by that comment...didn't see you bringing them out. Guess I'm the special one...thanks.
I'm not going to keep this arguement up...it's stupid, it's pointless, and it's just not worth arguing about.....

Seems to me that people need to practice what they preach....tolerance and acceptance, my ass.

ETA I thought that a debate was debating the topic and the opinion of the debaters, but with respect and not trying to offend people's beliefs or opinions. Now an arguement is a debate without the respect.....sounds to me more like an arguement than a debate.

it's bothering me that i never had to read that book! I'll check out the resale book store here thanks :)

no they don't hatetank! it totally threw me off the other day when someone wrote in the school newspaper a satirical article. i was like wtf?!?!? but then i was like oh...haha

did i summarize okay?

Napolean and Snowball.. Those wacky pigs.. That was a book that was banned from public schools a long time ago, but now it's required reading..

huh..

yeppers

it's bothering me that i never had to read that book! I'll check out the resale book store here thanks :)

You can read the book online here (http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm/)

I would HIGHLY recommend a hard copy of the book, though. You'll find yourself reading it EVERYWHERE you go.

From my hazy memory of reading the book about 30 times in Junior High, I'd say that was a pretty good summary! The multiple-layered innuendo in that book is simply amazing. People don't write like that anymore.

I agree.....I remember we had to read it in middle school, and my class absolutely hated it....I was clearly in the minority, because although I didn't get all of it right away, I did enjoy it. The movie is pretty good too, but I would def. recommend reading the book first....
She did do a good job of summerizing! :thumbsup

it's bothering me that i never had to read that book! I'll check out the resale book store here thanks :)

I know there's a website that you can read Orwell novels for free somewhere.. I'll look for it, they have 1984 on it too. I like that one better..

Here it is..
http://orwell.ru/library/novels/index_en

There were other people besides me, who were offended by that comment...didn't see you bringing them out. Guess I'm the special one...thanks.
I'm not going to keep this arguement up...it's stupid, it's pointless, and it's just not worth arguing about.....

Seems to me that people need to practice what they preach....tolerance and acceptance, my ass.

READ THE WHOLE THREAD!!!! I have quoted MANY people in this thread!!
SO no it isnt' just you!
Who the hell said tolerance and acceptance never came out of my mouth nor have I typed it!
And if you won't argue the point then most people don't post in the debate forum.
But what ever!

1984 was AMAZING!!! longer than animal farm though. i recommend a hard copy. i still have mine from high school that has notes in it :hehe

You can read the book online here (http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm/)

I would HIGHLY recommend a hard copy of the book, though. You'll find yourself reading it EVERYWHERE you go.


Thanks for the link :) I have to have the hard copy though. Once I get into a book I need to be able to sit down and really read it..kwim. It's just not the same online. I'll def start it online though :)

READ THE WHOLE THREAD!!!! I have quoted MANY people in this thread!!
SO no it isnt' just you!
Who the hell said tolerance and acceptance never came out of my mouth nor have I typed it!
And if you won't argue the point then most people don't post in the debate forum.
But what ever!

Yup...it's whatever. :dunno

Yup...it's whatever. :dunno

:no
thought you were done
so now you want to instigate things?

no offense to breezy and married2usaf but knock it off.

sorry

no offense to breezy and married2usaf but knock it off.

sorry

Hey, I'm done....I said my piece....:D

Hey I said my peace but I don't back down when someone is intentionally trying to start crap.
You all know me way better than that!

true breezy. i just had to say it i was going :freakout

the whole freaking thread is that way :giggle

i think it's hilarious how the thread goes from a book...to a VERY heated topic...to animal farm (which, by the way...i really hated. hehe...required reading in high school...and i love books, but i hated every second of it). sooo...back to original topic....it's a book. parents have been trying to get Harry Potter off the shelves for years...but it won't happen. know why....it's just a book!!!! i mean, lord....it's paper, with some ink on it..and the ink forms words. big deal...

and i don't believe that Leftover was trying to be offensive. she has her opinion (as do we all)...and she stated it. Which we all have the right to do...but i love this forum for the mere fact that you can say what you want without it getting cut out. the other forum that i was on....well, let's put it this way...if you said something the tiniest bit mean....that thread was closed down. it was the most annoying thing in the world!

so...here's my 2 cents. i've grown up in a household where i could ask all the questions that i wanted. i wasn't shelted...but i wasn't thrown out to the dogs either. i have a cousin who is gay...and my ex's mom is a lesbian. and they're both great people. when i find out that someone is gay...i don't judge them on that. i look at the person they are...not what they do behind closed doors. that way of life isn't for me...but if it's who they love, then go for it. i wouldn't want someone trying to tell me who to love...so i won't do it to them. everyone in the world deserves to be happy...and if being with someone of the same sex makes them happy...then by all means...

Well, to some people, having the schools teach their children to accept homosexuality as normal is a big deal.

How about a book backing abortion and explaining it to little kids? They're exposed to that all the time on TV and the news.. What's the big deal?

I totally agree. Just because homosexuality exists and kids will eventually be exposed to it does not mean that it's something that I believe is okay or something that I want my children to be taught about at school. I don't care about whether they were "fucking" in the book or not. :dunno Yes, I have books about families, but they contain families with a family compostition that I would consider normal.

As mentioned above, I wouldn't agree with a book backing abortion either. Yes, abortion exists and my child will EVENTUALLY know about it, but that does not mean I agree with it and I definitely don't want my elemtary aged child reading about it in a book from the school library. This is along those same lines, IMO.

To those of you who say "its just a book" or "its just penguins" and "its not porn". You're right. But to some parents who have strong beliefs about homosexuality, a book of that nature being checked out from a school library IS a big deal when you're talking about such a very young child.

i think it's hilarious how the thread goes from a book...to a VERY heated topic...to animal farm (which, by the way...i really hated. hehe...required reading in high school...and i love books, but i hated every second of it). sooo...back to original topic....it's a book. parents have been trying to get Harry Potter off the shelves for years...but it won't happen. know why....it's just a book!!!! i mean, lord....it's paper, with some ink on it..and the ink forms words. big deal...

By way of comparison, the Bible is "just a book", yet millions have been killed for the words written in it's pages. Often times, people are willing to kill simply because of the way they interpreted the book. And it's not even illustrated!

Never, ever underestimate the power of a writer with an agenda. It's NOT just a book. This is the author's attempt, by design or accident, to make children question their parents and family over a topic that parent may not be ready to answer.

I think this plan may backfire. It seems the authors plan, by design or accident, is to plant this seed of "Love is love, regardless of sex" into the minds of children, making them more succeptible to the concept as they mature. The backfire part comes in when the parent, who doesn't believe in such things, tells the child how wrong this is, how this is an abomination against God, and that anyone who believes this goes to hell. Now, the child faces the moral delimma of burning in hell for eternity or agreeing that Love is love. Most children will side with their parents.

You have to make believers of the PARENTS before you can convert the children. Parents have all-access passes to the childs life, while an author only has perhaps 30 minutes before bedtime.

By way of comparison, the Bible is "just a book", yet millions have been killed for the words written in it's pages. Often times, people are willing to kill simply because of the way they interpreted the book. And it's not even illustrated!

Never, ever underestimate the power of a writer with an agenda. It's NOT just a book. This is the author's attempt, by design or accident, to make children question their parents and family over a topic that parent may not be ready to answer.

I think this plan may backfire. It seems the authors plan, by design or accident, is to plant this seed of "Love is love, regardless of sex" into the minds of children, making them more succeptible to the concept as they mature. The backfire part comes in when the parent, who doesn't believe in such things, tells the child how wrong this is, how this is an abomination against God, and that anyone who believes this goes to hell. Now, the child faces the moral delimma of burning in hell for eternity or agreeing that Love is love. Most children will side with their parents.

You have to make believers of the PARENTS before you can convert the children. Parents have all-access passes to the childs life, while an author only has perhaps 30 minutes before bedtime.



are you serious?! really, did you reread this before you posted it...:shrug

and you know...in the bible, it also says to love and accept everyone, for they are all made in God's image and we are all brothers and sisters in christ. now, i understand that some people do not believe homosexuality is right because it's not the "normal" thing (and everyone is entitled to their own opinion)...but don't you think it'd be better to have your child be a bit open-minded, caring, loving, and accepting of others? cause you know...that's what jesus would do....love,care, and accept others...

are you serious?! really, did you reread this before you posted it...:shrug

and you know...in the bible, it also says to love and accept everyone, for they are all made in God's image and we are all brothers and sisters in christ. now, i understand that some people do not believe homosexuality is right because it's not the "normal" thing (and everyone is entitled to their own opinion)...but don't you think it'd be better to have your child be a bit open-minded, caring, loving, and accepting of others? cause you know...that's what jesus would do....love,care, and accept others...

Which part of my post was I specifically to re-read? I think I made quite a clear comparison between two books which can be easily misconstrued by any individual reader, can present a corrupted train of thought in a child when the parent is not well versed in the topic and that parents beliefs hold more value to a child than a book. I fail to see how any of my argument can be deemed off topic.

Secondly, I'll tell you SPECIFICALLY what the bible says: "Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them". According to the bible, homosexuals (or at the very least, male homosexuals) should be executed. Jesus would invariably offer the men a chance for redemption. He would love them as they are in the image of his father, but make no mistake. He would cast them into the pits of hell if they chose to remain in sin.

wow, I just read this entire post, and I must say, wow...

First, I dont think I would have used the bible as an example for a post about a gay penguin...There are TONS of books that could be examples.

I dont know what I would do in this case. I do not want a child that is not aware that there are families out there that are like this, and its more and more common. I just asked my husband about this on his way to work and he said no way, and i said yes way. He was babbling about something, then I said...What if we have a child and he/she does a sport/activity and they have a friend who has a family like the penguin? This could happen in elementary school or whenever. I think this is something that I as a parent feel I will have to tell my child about at an early age because I will not have my kids not hang out with someone cause their families arent like ours.

Im white and my husband is african american, would it be ok if your children read books about what my family will be...Some say yes, some say no, but families like us are out there...That is how I feel about this book.

First, I dont think I would have used the bible as an example for a post about a gay penguin...There are TONS of books that could be examples.

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I think my hubbys bible reference was in response to someone saying its just a book. He was trying to show that a book can have more power on people then people think....I could be wrong since I am not him but thats kinda how I took it ;) Course I also live with the guy so I know what he "usually" means :teehee

Oh ok!! thanks for clearing that up!! LOL I was like how do we go from a gay penguin to the bible...LOL

Im white and my husband is african american, would it be ok if your children read books about what my family will be...Some say yes, some say no, but families like us are out there...That is how I feel about this book.

To me...Homosexuality is a sexual thing. Something I dont really want my young child to know about without me approving it. Skin color is something TOTALLY different to me. :shrug As I said I have NOTHING against those who are gay. And I have nothing against this book. I dont think it should be banned. But I think it should be something that I ok before my child reads it. As I said earlier there are families where mommy loses her job, needs food and money badly and takes to the streets. I dont want my child reading that at a young age either. Do you?

This reminds me when I was a kid. There was a book by Judy Blume called Forever. It was about 2 teens who fell in love and yeah sex was involved. (If I remember correctly. I do know sex was involved in it tho) It was one of her more adult books. It was allowed in our library at school. But in a more mature section. Thats what I think the penguin book should be as well...Not banned. Just ok'd by the parents. I also had another book. Gosh I cant remember the name of it. But it was by a popular author. My mother bought it for me. And then she saw portions of what it had in it. Innocent enough it was but it had masturbation and such in it. Something SHE wanted to teach me. Not me read about in a book and especially so young (I was ahead inmy reading level and read thicker books. She did ok it at first but it gave no sign of having anything like that in it) When she saw that she was a little pissed because I was young and had not been taught about sex yet.

I agree with you Kristi, there are things you should discuss with your children and not leave it up to a book to educate them. Which is the case with a lot of parents in society today. They would rather leave say, Go Ask Alice to explain why you shouldnt do drugs, etc.

I guess my point is, that if two people love each other, be it that they are gay or straight and they have a child, they are a family in my eyes. And judging by today, its a very common thing. I know my children will come in contact with these families and I dont want them to be like "EWWWW Timmy has two daddies I dont want to play with him"

I agree with you Kristi, there are things you should discuss with your children and not leave it up to a book to educate them. Which is the case with a lot of parents in society today. They would rather leave say, Go Ask Alice to explain why you shouldnt do drugs, etc.

I guess my point is, that if two people love each other, be it that they are gay or straight and they have a child, they are a family in my eyes. And judging by today, its a very common thing. I know my children will come in contact with these families and I dont want them to be like "EWWWW Timmy has two daddies I dont want to play with him"

Nah I dont think my son will do that. I think since he doesnt know he will come to me and ask "why does Timmy have 2 dads" Instead of thinking it is gross. Obviously he will be taught about homosexuality but when the time is right. If he comes home at 6 and says that then by all means. I will sit him down and talk to him about it and explain But I dont think by not telling them about it they will be ewww. Kinda like sex. My parents didnt talk to me about it until they really had to and I never thought it was disgusting. It was just something I didnt know about until my period started....

Sigh, I never had a sex talk LOL

I agree with you Kristi, there are things you should discuss with your children and not leave it up to a book to educate them. Which is the case with a lot of parents in society today. They would rather leave say, Go Ask Alice to explain why you shouldnt do drugs, etc.

I guess my point is, that if two people love each other, be it that they are gay or straight and they have a child, they are a family in my eyes. And judging by today, its a very common thing. I know my children will come in contact with these families and I dont want them to be like "EWWWW Timmy has two daddies I dont want to play with him"

i couldn't agree with you more.

and to hatetank...well, actually...i have nothing more to say, because (in my nicest words) talking to you is like this...:banghead :banghead :banghead

i couldn't agree with you more.

and to hatetank...well, actually...i have nothing more to say, because (in my nicest words) talking to you is like this...:banghead :banghead :banghead

I think this is the first time I've ever been told that talking to me is like beating your head against the wall (on these message boards, anyway). Debates are argued with facts and evidence (or the interpretation of), not an unbridled word war fueled by personal opinions. I try to bring evidence to debates, from both sides of the argument. Stay in these forums long enough, you'll learn that I play both sides of a debate, depending on which side is "winning". I always root for the underdog.

I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, Hatetank. And it's not just because you're my friend either :P

I dunno I guess to me its all cut and dry. I grew up in a timeframe that being gay WASNT well known. AIDS was JUST making an appearance and thats how alot of people heard about gays. (yes people I am old :teehee) I was never talked to about gays. And I never thought "eewwwwww that is disgusting" when I saw a gay. KWIM? There is a place and time for everything. Regardless of it is something they will see. At say age 6 if my son sees 2 gay people and asks me then I have no problem telling him. Just as if he sees a single parent and asks me why they dont have a mommy or daddy I will tell him. And just like if he comes home and asks me about babies or whatever I will tell him (age appropiate of course) Or if he asks me abiut religion I will tell him....But until then I still stand by it should be MINE and my husbands decision on what and when they will learn when it comes to things like that. I know some places require a permission slip to be signed to attend sex ed. I dont see what the big deal is about making sure a book, that can be construed about being gay...animals or not...be placed in a mature section or parent approval be needed. I'm not asking it to be banned. I am just asking that I have the right to discuss it with my son when I see fit and when needed. Not a book that he just so happened to stumble upon in school.... I would feel the same way about a book that was about sex, or religion, or whatever. There are some things that I feel is my place to discuss with my children :dunno

There are some things that I feel is my place to discuss with my children

I feel the same. I have worked very feveriently for the last 7 years to raise my son the way I believe is best. I will parent him and educate him the way that I choose. When I believe he is ready to know about sex, I will educate him..

I won't allow a public school to undermine the way that I raise my son. Schools aren't daycares, and they aren't a substitute for parenting. I grow tired of the parents that have the mindset of "He's your problem when he's in your class". :gaah

Wow... I really did try to read the whole debate but things got crazy and a little difficult to follow! :nutts :lol So, I'm just going to jump in with my opinion on the original topic.

Subject matter like that is tough to comprehend for children and I think it should be up to the parents whether or not they want to discuss it with their children. For that reason, I don't think the book should feature in school libraries. I do think that it should be placed in the childrens' section of the public library though. It was intended for a specific age group and should go in that section. Small children should be supervised in a public library anyway, so the parent would hopefully be present to help their child choose which book to read. That's just my opinion.