This may be suitable for the venting section, or maybe the parenting section, but I sense that it can cause debate, so I am posting here...

I am a music specialist who is lucky enough to see all of the kids in one school up to twice per week. I have a very thorough curriculum that is not just songs and games. It integrates music with critical social skills, life skills and all other areas of the curriculum. With the right curriculum support, these kids can graduate from elementary schools with the ablity to read, write, and perform music, to say the least.

Here's where I am going crazy...

Each year I am seeing more and more kindergarteners and 1st graders entering our schools and completely lacking the basic social and academic skills of 5 and 6 year olds. Now I am not saying that all 5 and 6 year olds SHOULD come in having all of the skills, nor am I saying that we should expect them to. What I see are 5 year olds, for example, who are enrolled into kindergarten displaying social skills that are equivalent to 2 and 3-year olds. There are kids who come in not even knowing their own last name, not knowing how to say their alphabet, not knowing their colors, not knowing how to count past their age, not fully potty trained and worst of all, not showing any progress after 7 months of school. I can't even tell you how many kids have been evaluated over and over again for disorders and disabilities, only to discover that their is nothing wrong with them, except for the fact that they are simply not developmentally ready for kindergarten.

I can't even tell you how many parents have admitted that they know their kid isn't quite ready yet, but they don't want to have to pay for daycare anymore!:inshock (by the way, I teach in a very weathly area, where most moms are stay-at-home or work part time, or at least have the money for a nanny, baby sitter, or daycare).

Is it really coming down to the fact that parents are willing to let their child struggle; willing to burden the teacher with a high-needs child when he/she is already challenged enough with all of politics, red-tape, lack of funding, and huge class sizes; just so they can save some money? Statistically, at least 80% of children who start off struggling academically and emotionally at school will continue to struggle until they either drop out, fail out, get kicked out or, barely graduate.

What are your thoughts on this? If you knew that paying for daycare for just one more year would mean that your child could wait to enter kindergarten until he/she is developmentally ready to be successful, wouldn't you want to sacrifice the money? Wouldn't make sense to give your child one more year of pre-school, or tutoring, or something; rather than find out that they have to repeat kindergarten because they just couldn't hack it?

I am so terrified about what our society and education is turning into lately.

I thought that that was what kindergarten was for. Learning colors, numbers, and letters. If I am going to teach ds that at home then why does he need to go to kindergarten?

I try not to send ds to daycare because of money and wanting to spend time with him as much as possible. I dont see that as "holding" him back on a education level.

We started Gabe in kinder at the age of 4. He turned 5 in Nov. He has done really well in school. There are some issues that he is dealing with with being younger than most in his class. but social skills are not apart of that. he isnt emotionally where he should be, but he also has a serious medical background behind that. he has been slowly improving in all areas.

all the stuff that gabe already knew going into kindergarten, he had a hard time just sitting there. he already knew what they were teaching and there were some behavior stuff going on. but now they are on to stuff that i didnt teach him and he is doing much better now.

now a days they need to know allot before they go into kindergarten.children that don't go to pre school are really at a disadvantage socially and academically. I don't feel people should rush there children into kindergarten. It will only hurt them in the long run.

I can't even tell you how many parents have admitted that they know their kid isn't quite ready yet, but they don't want to have to pay for daycare anymore!:inshock (by the way, I teach in a very weathly area, where most moms are stay-at-home or work part time, or at least have the money for a nanny, baby sitter, or daycare).


Who is to say that these parents are equipt to pay for a nanny, baby sitter or daycare?? Some parents are not equipt to identify what their child needs to know when entering kindergarten. It truly is a melting pot of kids going into the school system. Some kids will be well prepared, others will not. I think it is unfair to assume that every kid will be 'well' prepared for kindergarten, no matter what teh economical background.

Money does NOT equal knowledge. Nurturing may guide knowledge. Teaching Leads to knowledge.

I thought that that was what kindergarten was for. Learning colors, numbers, and letters. If I am going to teach ds that at home then why does he need to go to kindergarten?

I try not to send ds to daycare because of money and wanting to spend time with him as much as possible. I dont see that as "holding" him back on a education level.

Yes, those basics are what kindergarten is for...only to a certain extent. I am talking about kids who have not yet fully learned the basic things to the extent that they can't yet get to learning the whole alphabet. For example, there are kids that even 6 months into the school year, they are still working on going to the bathroom on their own, feeding themselves their own lunch, not being able to walk in a line with the other kids, not able to spell their first name or say their last name, rolling around the floor throwing a violent fit and hanging on the teacher while screaming because they don't want to wait two more minutes until lunch time....

kids should come into kindergarden with some very basic knowledge so that they can then learn to connect this knowledge to life in general. The jump from Kinder. to 1st grade is huge. In first grade, kids are expected to be able to write a full sentence...how can they do this if by the end of kindergarten, they still struggle to remember what all of the letters are?

If parents choose not to send their children to preschool, which is perfectly respectable, especially when they value quality time with their kids; then they need to accept the responsibility to teach them what they need to know to be able to handle being in kindergarten (away from mom for up to 6 hours, able to communicate and function under the authority of a multiple adults who don't know them as well as parents do, etc.). With that said, there are even kids that go to preschool, but at the age of five, are simply not ready, be it emotionally, physcially, socially or intellectually.

Yes, those basics are what kindergarten is for...only to a certain extent. I am talking about kids who have not yet fully learned the basic things to the extent that they can't yet get to learning the whole alphabet. For example, there are kids that even 6 months into the school year, they are still working on going to the bathroom on their own, feeding themselves their own lunch, not being able to walk in a line with the other kids, not able to spell their first name or say their last name, rolling around the floor throwing a violent fit and hanging on the teacher while screaming because they don't want to wait two more minutes until lunch time....

kids should come into kindergarden with some very basic knowledge so that they can then learn to connect this knowledge to life in general. The jump from Kinder. to 1st grade is huge. In first grade, kids are expected to be able to write a full sentence...how can they do this if by the end of kindergarten, they still struggle to remember what all of the letters are?

If parents choose not to send their children to preschool, which is perfectly respectable, especially when they value quality time with their kids; then they need to accept the responsibility to teach them what they need to know to be able to handle being in kindergarten (away from mom for up to 6 hours, able to communicate and function under the authority of a multiple adults who don't know them as well as parents do, etc.). With that said, there are even kids that go to preschool, but at the age of five, are simply not ready, be it emotionally, physcially, socially or intellectually.


I disagree.. There should not be the expectation that a child of age 5 should be independent from their parents. These are our babies. Preschool is an Added Curriculum that parents may choose to utilize, but is not necessary. Kindergarten teachers should be ready to assist ALL age 5 children regardless of 'educational' background. Society today is expecting WAY too much from our young children in Kindergarten. Used to be that Kindergarten was where children learned to socialize.....now all of a sudden it has moved to Pre-school. Wrong direction in my opinion.

Too much is expected to young!!!!!!!!!! It's Bullshit! :banghead

I disagree.. There should not be the expectation that a child of age 5 should be independent from their parents. These are our babies. Preschool is an Added Curriculum that parents may choose to utilize, but is not necessary. Kindergarten teachers should be ready to assist ALL age 5 children regardless of 'educational' background. Society today is expecting WAY too much from our young children in Kindergarten. Used to be that Kindergarten was where children learned to socialize.....now all of a sudden it has moved to Pre-school. Wrong direction in my opinion.

I 100% agree. I dont see how a 1st grader should be writing full sentences when they will learn proper usage (noun, verb, ect) in later years. Everyone wants kids to act older but when they are 13 acting 25, they wonder why they want to grow so fast. I believe they are pushed into those things. I know that is not exactly what this post is about but I see a connection!

I 100% agree. I dont see how a 1st grader should be writing full sentences when they will learn proper usage (noun, verb, ect) in later years. Everyone wants kids to act older but when they are 13 acting 25, they wonder why they want to grow so fast. I believe they are pushed into those things. I know that is not exactly what this post is about but I see a connection!

I agree with this as well. I think it is very much connected to the debate. I think that working within the public school system, which can be so backwards and frustrating at times, I am kind of taking the stance that if you can't change the system that expects too much too soon, why not just wait to enter the kids into the system until they are at level where the expectations match the needs of the child? IMO, there's nothing wrong with having a 6-year old, or even 7-year old in kindergarden if that's when they're ready for it? Heck, why not just make preschool the new kindergarten and require everyone to go? So, the kids will be in school for more than 12 years... would that really be all that bad?

Heck, there are so, so many factors involved in raising and educating children, I am losing hope that there will ever be a true public system that will really be able to accommodate for every kind of child. It's just so frustrating.

I thought that that was what kindergarten was for. Learning colors, numbers, and letters. If I am going to teach ds that at home then why does he need to go to kindergarten?

I try not to send ds to daycare because of money and wanting to spend time with him as much as possible. I dont see that as "holding" him back on a education level.

Exactly - my thinking, too.

There was no one in my life that told me otherwise, either - my parents, of course, didn't know - and our pediatrician didn't say anything, either.

For parents to know the expectations they have to be made aware of them, first - which means that the ones who come into contact with that child and who DO know should say something.
And even when you go to find out such information often, if you've never had to look and find out , it's easy to not know where to look.

We found out that our oldest had a learning disability - on top of not being generally ready - and his Dr. had never given any reason for us to suspect that "there was something different about him"
He was not ready and I was ok with the idea of keeping him at home for an extra year - no problem! But the school was actually against that.
They were against that in the 1st and 2nd grade, too.
Now he's in 3rd - takes special ed classes to help him out and he's doing quite well, but he can't make it without that special ed help...which is NOT what he needs.
At the end of this year I am going to insist that we hold him abck so he can catch up the rest of the way and lose his dependency on his tutoring - he needs to learn that he can't depend on people for hte rest of his life (which is what tutoring year after year does)...but hte school is against that idea, as well.

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If it is an issue then children should be tested before they even sign up for school - that would save a lot of problems and that would give parents and the children a chance to at least partially catch up.

At least hand the parents a checklist of milestones and abilities when they go to sign up - have them look over it before they enroll their child.
If I was given a "is your child ready" sheet BEFORE we signed him up for school things would have been so much easier for him.

If it is an issue then children should be tested before they even sign up for school - that would save a lot of problems and that would give parents and the children a chance to at least partially catch up.

At least hand the parents a checklist of milestones and abilities when they go to sign up - have them look over it before they enroll their child.
If I was given a "is your child ready" sheet BEFORE we signed him up for school things would have been so much easier for him.

Boy, this makes an awful lot of sense! I think the challenge with this idea is that every state, every district, and even every school is constantly at a debate about where the kids should be academically in school. The sad part is that, particularly in my state, the overall focus has been about standardized tests. Everybody is under the gun and those who have the power to make the decisions, implement change, etc., don't seem to have any clue about what kids really need. They think that by setting high standards for tests at certain grade levels will cause us to teacher harder and faster; yet they constantly deny us the resources to do so. Where I work, teachers would literally have to go on strike year after year just to get the point across that setting developmentally unrealistic standards, and treating every child as academically equal is NOT in the best interest of our children nor our society.

I hate to do all of this finger pointing, but it gets this way more and more every year in the public schools. Seriously, the curriculums that the classroom teachers are mandated to teach are, no kidding, scripted. Teachers are actually given a script of what to say in order to teach a subject to the kids! How sad is that!?

As far as informing parents ahead of time...I am going to recommend that to my school...but many times our school doesn't know who will be enrolling into our kindergarten until literally a couple of days before school starts. I can imagnine that it would be easier if our state mandated a system of pre-assessing kids, and valued the idea of student-centered education, then this would be easy to do...BUT imagine the uproar if parents walk in two days before the start of school to enrol their child, only to discover that all of their plans for the year have to change because their child is not considered ready for school. I know that the parents in my district wouldn't ever have it that way.

I thought that that was what kindergarten was for. Learning colors, numbers, and letters. If I am going to teach ds that at home then why does he need to go to kindergarten?

I try not to send ds to daycare because of money and wanting to spend time with him as much as possible. I dont see that as "holding" him back on a education level.


Thank you!!
When did kindergarten change? (Sometime after I graduated to the first grade.) When I went kindergarten we learned all the basic things that was what it was for. Letters, numbers, colors. When my little sister started kindergarten the year before last she had to be able to tie her shoe, know all her letters, colors, and count to 100. If I am not mistaken here in GA you have to know certain things to get into kindergarten. When it is time for preschool signup parents camp out just to get their child into an acredited preschool to ensure that they will be ready for kindergarten. Why is there a need to kindergarten when they learn all the stuff in preschool that we use to get all of it in kindergarten?

When did kindergarten change? (Sometime after I graduated to the first grade.) When I went kindergarten we learned all the basic things that was what it was for. Letters, numbers, colors. When my little sister started kindergarten the year before last she had to be able to tie her shoe, know all her letters, colors, and count to 100. If I am not mistaken here in GA you have to know certain things to get into kindergarten. When it is time for preschool signup parents camp out just to get their child into an acredited preschool to ensure that they will be ready for kindergarten. Why is there a need to kindergarten when they learn all the stuff in preschool that we use to get all of it in kindergarten?

Yes, but Georgia offers FREE Preschool to EVERY 4 year old regardless of income.

I can understand having to be potty trained and knowing your name but to be expected to know numbers and letter down cold....:no

When it is going to become where pre-school you need to know these things? Before we know it 2 year olds are going to be expected to site the Gettsburg Address!!!

Coming from the mindset that kindergarten is NOT part of the schoolsystem (which is the way it is in Germany) I am always baffled at the extend of things kids here have to know in kindergarten. To me all those things (numbers and letters) can wait until 1st grade. That's what SCHOOL should be for IMO. Colors, basic shapes, tying shoe laces are things I learned in kindergarten. Everything else came when I went to elementary school. And IMO that's the way it should be,

i'm telling you homeschooling is the way to go :giggle j/k

being potty trained is HUGE, being able to know your last name or at least have some sort of sembelance of what it is

I think it's sad that kids go to kindergarten and not be able to count to atleast 10 or know their ABC's or know how to say their whole name! That's the parents fault!! My 2 year old knows the alphabet for goodness sake!
Someone said that kids that don't go to pre-k are at a disadvantage! That's not true!! Ethan didn't go to pre-k and he's been above the kids and bored to death since he's been in school. He's in 2nd grade and recently in an advanced program multiplying and cursive writing already and he's having a blast now. Elizabeth goes to pre-k for the social aspect, she gets bored at home, she's smart, she knew how to count to 100 and all her ABC's before she went to pre-k. I think if your a teacher, whether it's a music teacher or PE teacher even for elementary children you should be ready for kids to come into school not knowing anything because of lazy ass parents etc. you're there to teach them!!

Everyone has a different life and different problems, can't group everyone together.
Some parents know and don't care - they're the lazy ones.
Other parents can't - even if they wanted to - be there for their chidlren 24/7 ... sickness, divorce, other such serious issues that occupy your time and take you away from your duties as a parent can have a huge affect on what and when things get done.
Some parents don't know - and if they did then they'd do something more.

When my son was two I went through a very nasty divorce from an abusive ex husband - he drug the proceedings on for a ridiculously long time and I had to work extra hours to cover the legal fees.
I did what I could with my children (at that time they were age 2 and newborn) - but sometimes it's just never enough.

My older son - with the support of my husband - has learned cursive writing, how ot tie his shoes, and all those things before his time for it in school. He was way behind and now he's advanced.
He's advanced when you look at his grades - but he still has serious developmental problems that the schools don't take into consideration and don't test for.

These are the problems that people see, though - if you met him and asked him "what did you do today" he wouldn't know what to tell you other than the routine that he does every day. People don't know he makes all A's and can play any song on the piano without music.
Tell him "Go out to the truck and get your backpack." He'll go out to the truck and sit there, knowing he went to get something but he cant' remember what it was - and he wouldn't think to come and ask.

He, social and cognative learning wise is on the level of a kindergardener - but he can do all the basics like you wouldn't believe - flawless multiplication skills, he can spell anything.

Likewise - I'm quite certain that other children who fit in just fine in school have serious problems that aren't reflected in their test scores.

School is designed to educate the basics - if you can sort of do math, read and write you can make it through...Meanwhile, your serious problem could be completely overlooked. Then, when you're older, it catches up to you when you leave home and venture into the real world.

School, I feel, needs to focus more on how to get a child ready for life - not for college. (not in the early years, of course - but in highschool, definately)

So, my point is that assuming that all kids just don't know __ and __ because their parents are lazy and didn't try to teach them is a ridiculous notion.
I worked on teaching my son to tie his shoes for over two years - finally one day he got it, all that exhausting, hard work paid off.
It's not like we didn't try for all that time - we tried and tried, he just *didn't get it* It was unbelievably frustrating, too - he was able to construct functioning mini bulldozers with his massive connect-it set but he couldn't physical make a loop and pull it through.

That's how a lot more kids are - autism and other such problems are on the rise - which means that there are a lot of kids out there who do have mild forms of it (in my son's case - select lack of functioning) and it just doesn't show all the time.