fter reading through the thread about interracial relationships, my brain started spinning very fast, so naturally I started thinking of other issues that people might have different opinions on.
SO, what is your take on homosexual relationships and marriages?


i have MANY homosexuals in my family, all of which are completely "out' about their relationships and totally accepted in the family. My aunt married (civil union) her long time girlfriend, and just had their first daughter Nora 2 1/2 years ago. I LOVE NORA SOOO MUCH! she's so awesome. Anyway, we are from Maine/New Hampshire/Vermont and it's tolerated around these areas for the most part.

One of my best guy friends is gay and I don't have a "problem" with it, I accept him and I'm still his friend, but I do not think it is "right."

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too

yet again, what other people do in their lives has nothing to do with me. I dont care.

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too

:yes

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too

Well scooch over on the bench...because I agree with you.

Well scooch over on the bench...because I agree with you.

*slaps bench* come on sit down :D

What other people choose to do with their relationships is their business. I have gay friends, and I love them to death.

Because of my religious beliefs, I do not believe it is the right thing to do, but it's not my life!

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too


lol i'm sorry about flipping out in the last thread, and ftr i wasn't calling you prejudice. :peace
i agree with the pda part, i dont really want to see pda from anyone
i really am curious to see how homosexual relationships are viewed in other parts of the country.

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too


I agree with this too!

And I want to add that they way homosexuals view civil unions and "marriage" will vary from area to area. I met many homosexuals in South Texas who are totally against it as well as adopting...if you want to live together that was fine for them, but anything else they viewed as wrong.

lol i'm sorry about flipping out in the last thread, and ftr i wasn't calling you prejudice. :peace

i really am curious to see how homosexual relationships are viewed in other parts of the country.

she is talking about me not u

i think its great if that is what makes them happy, go for it

I don't understand why it shouldn't be called marriage...

I am all for the right of ANY citizen in this country to enter a LEGAL CONTRACT with another citizen of this country. That's what it comes down to for me. I believe that people are born gay (and there is increasing scientific evidence to support that belief), but even if they weren't it shouldn't matter. We are supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and telling someone that they can't be legally bound to whoever they want based on personal annoyance or religious belief goes against everything our country stands for.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Letting gay people "marry" (or whatever you think it should be called) doesn't force anyone else to do anything they don't want to do.

she is talking about me not u

i think its great if that is what makes them happy, go for it

sorry for flipping out on you too ;) truce

I think that they should be allowed to do whatever they please. They are humans and people just like us. They should be allowed to love and allowed to show their love just as someone of a hetersexual relationship is allowed to do.

But that's just my opinion. :D

I don't understand why it shouldn't be called marriage...

I am all for the right of ANY citizen in this country to enter a LEGAL CONTRACT with another citizen of this country. That's what it comes down to for me. I believe that people are born gay (and there is increasing scientific evidence to support that belief), but even if they weren't it shouldn't matter. We are supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and telling someone that they can't be legally bound to whoever they want based on personal annoyance or religious belief goes against everything our country stands for.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Letting gay people "marry" (or whatever you think it should be called) doesn't force anyone else to do anything they don't want to do.


ooh yes actually i am sure people are born gay, after talking to the various people in my family (there are 7), and they all said that they just always felt different and it wasn't like one day they said "hmm, i think i'll be gay now" lol!! good point with that

sorry for flipping out on you too ;) truce


lol i dont know who flipped out on who flipped out on who but let's all agree..truce! LOL! (L) :goodvibes


THERE!

wicked i agree with you that there is enough scientific evidence out there to say that it is a genetic thing. there is also some scientific evidence to show that if you are a younger sibling of brothers you will have a better chance of having some "feminine" cerebral characteristics. i'll see if i can find the study that my prof mentioned in phys. psyc.

I agree with the genetic thing too...I don't think someone wakes up and looks in the mirror and says "hum...I think I will be gay", I think it's something that is always there and some people may supress that.

Why should it not be called marriage? Totally IMO only (and trying not to be ignorant) but marriage is between a man and wife, it's traditional. Why not call it a "Union".

But why is the word marriage so special? That's what I don't get. The contract would be the same between a man and a woman as it would be between a woman and a woman or a man and a man if it were legal for gays, so why a different name? Religion does not have a right to that word. If it did, people would have to be married in a church. The government can't force people to marry in a church to get legal benefits because of the first amendment. So, I don't get why one group can use the word but the other shouldn't. Either give the word to religion totally and the government has to stop "marrying" people and everyone gets a "union", or everyone gets to be "married". KWIM?

I just don't think that separate IS equal. I think that is a smoke screen to mask discrimination. I personally don't give a crap what any of it is called if it means that gay people get equal rights. The semantics can be fixed later. I just don't understand WHY the WORD is so important. LOL.

I totally get what you saying. It either is or isn't. But like I said, maybe because marriage is traditionally between a man and woman

I don't care let them get married if they want. More money for tax purposes, and who am I to judge anyone elses relationship.

I live in the south, and things seem to be looked upon differently here than other places. I, however am originally from Philadelphia, and people seem to accept this more there. I have a good friend thats a lesbian, and I dont down her for it, but I do let her know my opinion on the subject.. which goes deep within religion and such, so I wont go into detail on the. But if thats what someone wants to do, so be it, I cant stop them. But their kids are badly affected by it

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, but have come to believe that sexuality and race are two very small things in the scheme of life. I believe they shouldn't be looked upon as different, because who's to say who should be treated differently and who should be considered "normal"? That is nobody's right. We are all human, and it bothers me to no end when people treat them differently, especially through the law. Im not going to say anything about religion because people are very easily offended, but I and many other people I know have grown up/are religious and do not care about homosexuality.

I don't understand why it shouldn't be called marriage...

I am all for the right of ANY citizen in this country to enter a LEGAL CONTRACT with another citizen of this country. That's what it comes down to for me. I believe that people are born gay (and there is increasing scientific evidence to support that belief), but even if they weren't it shouldn't matter. We are supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and telling someone that they can't be legally bound to whoever they want based on personal annoyance or religious belief goes against everything our country stands for.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Letting gay people "marry" (or whatever you think it should be called) doesn't force anyone else to do anything they don't want to do.



I agree 110 %.

I live in the south, and things seem to be looked upon differently here than other places. I, however am originally from Philadelphia, and people seem to accept this more there. I have a good friend thats a lesbian, and I dont down her for it, but I do let her know my opinion on the subject.. which goes deep within religion and such, so I wont go into detail on the. But if thats what someone wants to do, so be it, I cant stop them. But their kids are badly affected by it


why do you think their kids are badly affected by it? I guess I just don't really understand what you mean by that lol

why do you think their kids are badly affected by it? I guess I just don't really understand what you mean by that lol

I can tell you why some gay people think that kids are badly affected by it......and this is from the mouth of a gay woman I know!! A very large # of gay relationships do not and can not stand the test of time..the failure rate is too high as well as the rate if cheating, much higher than a male/female relationship.....like I said, these are things told to me by gay people I have not done the research myself

I say more power to them, I don't see why they can't be married or have civil unions. It doesn't affect my life one little bit, and it makes them happy *shrug*.
I have many lesbian and gay friends, and I think they should be allowed everything everyone else is entitled to, they're humans just like the rest of us.

why do you think their kids are badly affected by it? I guess I just don't really understand what you mean by that lol
IMO children of gay marriages/unions are treated differently by other kids/society etc. Ive seen this personally and I dont think its faor for the kids to have to suffer. My friend thats gay told me she would NEVER want one of her children to be gay or a brother/sister. Its society, and like the other threads on bi-racial relationships and such, people ARE going to be mean and they ARE going to have something to say, and I guess its the kids that suffer in the long run. Its sad thats the case

I would love to know who came up with the definition of what marriage is in this country.

What other people do in their personal lives, who they love and choose to be with for however long they chose to be with them, has nothing to do with me and my life. In a nation where everyone is guaranteed certain freedoms, I think its pretty hypocritial to tell gays/lesbians that they can't marry because of their sexual orientation.

If you don't like gay marriage, don't get one. Its pretty simple.

I would love to know who came up with the definition of what marriage is in this country.

What other people do in their personal lives, who they love and choose to be with for however long they chose to be with them, has nothing to do with me and my life. In a nation where everyone is guaranteed certain freedoms, I think its pretty hypocritial to tell gays/lesbians that they can't marry because of their sexual orientation.

If you don't like gay marriage, don't get one. Its pretty simple.


I agree:yes

I can tell you why some gay people think that kids are badly affected by it......and this is from the mouth of a gay woman I know!! A very large # of gay relationships do not and can not stand the test of time..the failure rate is too high as well as the rate if cheating, much higher than a male/female relationship.....like I said, these are things told to me by gay people I have not done the research myself


The divorce rate for heterosexual marriage was at 60% last time i checked, i would assume it's nearing 75% and i'm sorry but i don't believe that cheating "levels" (i couldnt think of another word for itl ol) can be fairly weighed according to sexuality. THe fact is that some people are cheaters, and some are not, regardless of their sexual preference. That's strange anyway because out of the 7 gay people in my family, and my 5 gay friends, none of them cheat or have heard of a friend etc. cheating. Maybe it's a geographical thing. ANyway, i think that's a bold statement to make that children are affected badly by having gay parents. Conceiving a child in a homosexual relationship is a VERY pre-meditated event. It takes a lot of work and planning and let's face it; money. It's not just 2 people having sex and then YAY we are pregnant! it's in-vitro, it's adopting, it surrogate parenting. People who put this much time, energy, money and effort into the purpose of having children and starting a family sound like very good parents to me and seem that they most likely will have a consistent following of planning and effort in raising their children.

IMO children of gay marriages/unions are treated differently by other kids/society etc. Ive seen this personally and I dont think its faor for the kids to have to suffer. My friend thats gay told me she would NEVER want one of her children to be gay or a brother/sister. Its society, and like the other threads on bi-racial relationships and such, people ARE going to be mean and they ARE going to have something to say, and I guess its the kids that suffer in the long run. Its sad thats the case



i can understand that completely , but at the same time if more people "put it out there" and more people learned to accept it, it would become the norm and they would no longer be teased etc. it's only a matter of time i hope. i also think that if the child is raised with high confidence and has high sef esteem he/she will be more able to deal with criticism and wil l obviously be MUCH more tolerant that most people. The child can then educate his/her friends and hopefully his/her friends will learn that he/she is not different from them and his/her parents are just as good. lol wow that was a lot of he/she's haha

THe fact is that some people are cheaters, and some are not, regardless of their sexual preference.


That is so true.

ANyway, i think that's a bold statement to make that children are affected badly by having gay parents.

Hold the phone, I completely missed whoever made that statement.

What proof is there that parents of gay/lesbian children are more negatively affected than children of straight couples?

IMO children of gay marriages/unions are treated differently by other kids/society etc. Ive seen this personally and I dont think its faor for the kids to have to suffer. My friend thats gay told me she would NEVER want one of her children to be gay or a brother/sister. Its society, and like the other threads on bi-racial relationships and such, people ARE going to be mean and they ARE going to have something to say, and I guess its the kids that suffer in the long run. Its sad thats the case

People have something to say about EVERYTHING anymore. Is that a good enough reason not to have kids for anyone else? Should ugly people not be allowed to procreate because they may have ugly kids and their kids will be teased? What about people who may carry genetic disorders? Or biracial couples? Or people who have crooked teeth or bad eye sight because their kids may be called brace face or four eyes?

The American Psychiatric Association has done a number of studies about everything from gender identity, sexual orientation, social development, social relationships, and overall health and well being of children raised by gay and lesbian parents versus those raised by heterosexual parents, and NO DIFFERENCE was found in one group from the other.

I can tell you why some gay people think that kids are badly affected by it......and this is from the mouth of a gay woman I know!! A very large # of gay relationships do not and can not stand the test of time..the failure rate is too high as well as the rate if cheating, much higher than a male/female relationship.....like I said, these are things told to me by gay people I have not done the research myself

I have never seen anything to support that. I would be curious to see if there is a non-religious, non-partisan study out there that does.

I don't paticularly support or discourage gay relationships. Technically speaking, it goes against my religion, but I have a few gay realitives and I'm more of the to-each-his-own mindset. In reference to children, I have no idea. I don't have any and a few homosexuals I know have perfectly mornal chihldren, so I have no idea how it affects kids to have gay parents

I think that they should be allowed to do whatever they please. They are humans and people just like us. They should be allowed to love and allowed to show their love just as someone of a hetersexual relationship is allowed to do.

But that's just my opinion. :D

I totally agree with you.

People have something to say about EVERYTHING anymore. Is that a good enough reason not to have kids for anyone else? Should ugly people not be allowed to procreate because they may have ugly kids and their kids will be teased? What about people who may carry genetic disorders? Or biracial couples? Or people who have crooked teeth or bad eye sight because their kids may be called brace face or four eyes?

The American Psychiatric Association has done a number of studies about everything from gender identity, sexual orientation, social development, social relationships, and overall health and well being of children raised by gay and lesbian parents versus those raised by heterosexual parents, and NO DIFFERENCE was found in one group from the other.



I have never seen anything to support that. I would be curious to see if there is a non-religious, non-partisan study out there that does.
im not saying this should prevent two people that love eachother to get married or form a holy union. This is just how society is. Its a cruel world, and yes people do have something to say about EVERYTHING. But by all means, if its what a person wants to do, thats their right. I was just stating how society is as a whole.

I don't understand why it shouldn't be called marriage...

I am all for the right of ANY citizen in this country to enter a LEGAL CONTRACT with another citizen of this country. That's what it comes down to for me. I believe that people are born gay (and there is increasing scientific evidence to support that belief), but even if they weren't it shouldn't matter. We are supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and telling someone that they can't be legally bound to whoever they want based on personal annoyance or religious belief goes against everything our country stands for.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Letting gay people "marry" (or whatever you think it should be called) doesn't force anyone else to do anything they don't want to do.

I agree.

im not saying this should prevent two people that love eachother to get married or form a holy union. This is just how society is. Its a cruel world, and yes people do have something to say about EVERYTHING. But by all means, if its what a person wants to do, thats their right. I was just stating how society is as a whole.

I agree with you... I was just expounding... :P

SO what do you ladies think about gays being allowed in the military?

SO what do you ladies think about gays being allowed in the military?

same opinion as with anything else: if it doesn't affect their job then i don't care

SO what do you ladies think about gays being allowed in the military?

You should start a whole new debate thread on this... I bet it will blow up just like this thread and the interracial relationship threads have!

same opinion as with anything else: if it doesn't affect their job then i don't care
i agree, if it doesnt affect how they do their job, more power to them for defending our country!

You should start a whole new debate thread on this... I bet it will blow up just like this thread and the interracial relationship threads have!
You grab the popcorn, I'll grab the vodka ;)

Haha, sounds good! Meet ya back here in 5... :P

SO what do you ladies think about gays being allowed in the military?

I hate to be the one to break it to you but, um...


That's already happened. Gays/lesbians are in the military in LARGE numbers. :lol

Im well aware of this, I was just asking the opinion on the subject :P

SO what do you ladies think about gays being allowed in the military?

I think it's absurd that they can't serve openly. And I hate that whole "well they have to shower together" argument. And the idea that it would be bad for unit cohesion. Blah blah blah, get over it. The services integrated racially very succesfully, there's no reason this has to be any different. And the militaries of many other countries include openly gay servicemembers, they aren't having any problems with it that I'm aware of.

In my opinion what other people do in their lives is their issue. I see no reason why they can't have the same benefits (insurance etc) of marriage as married couples do. :)

I think it's absurd that they can't serve openly. And I hate that whole "well they have to shower together" argument. And the idea that it would be bad for unit cohesion. Blah blah blah, get over it. The services integrated racially very succesfully, there's no reason this has to be any different. And the militaries of many other countries include openly gay servicemembers, they aren't having any problems with it that I'm aware of.

The US is a very homophobic country, that's why.

Well, then that is the problem of the HOMOPHOBE and not the homosexual. If someone can't serve with another soldier because they are gay and it makes them uncomfortable, then maybe they shouldn't be in the military. Why should the gay person be punished and told they can't serve when someone else has the problem?

I believe in civil unions, but not marriages. But that's because marriage TO ME is a religious and ONLY a religious word. I would consider myself married even if I didn't have a marriage lisence if I vowed before God by a priest. I would NOT consider myself married unless I got married before God by a priest. But that's ME.
I do believe it's a sin, but no sin is great than another. I believe it can be forgiven. I also believe swearing is a sin, and I swear. And pre-marital sex, gossiping, not forgiving, etc are all swears. And I've made all those mistakes, so who am I to say anything about someone else's sins? NOBODY.
This is all what I believe for myself, so there are really no reasons for someone to jump on me for it. But I'm almost positive someone will.

OK here are my 2 cents :) I personally could care less if someone is homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual or asexual... what does that have to do with them as a person. There sexual preference is just that, THEIRS. Its not like they're trying to "turn" everyone else gay Just because a gay couple want to get married or have children or whatever else doesn't mean that its going to directly effect everyone else. They're together anyway, why not give them the respect to have a marriage just like any other couple in this country. I'll tell you guys they same thing I told my 17 yr old sister when she came out of the closet... " And your point is... its not changing who you are as a person" I've never been more proud of my little sister or the gay community as a whole for how they stand up for themselves and are trying to have equality

Whatever makes people happy.

I dont know I have always been a big supporter of Gay Rights but as I progress in my walk with God, I find this to be a struggle in bleifs. But in the end everyone deserves to have a partener, whether male, female, martian, animal that makes them happy

I believe in civil unions, but not marriages. But that's because marriage TO ME is a religious and ONLY a religious word. I would consider myself married even if I didn't have a marriage lisence if I vowed before God by a priest. I would NOT consider myself married unless I got married before God by a priest. But that's ME.
I do believe it's a sin, but no sin is great than another. I believe it can be forgiven. I also believe swearing is a sin, and I swear. And pre-marital sex, gossiping, not forgiving, etc are all swears. And I've made all those mistakes, so who am I to say anything about someone else's sins? NOBODY.
This is all what I believe for myself, so there are really no reasons for someone to jump on me for it. But I'm almost positive someone will.

I don't want to jump on you... just ask you a question.

Since you believe that marriage is a strictly religious thing, then do you think that the government should stop "marrying" people and start "uniting" them instead?

I have no problem with gay relationships or gay's being "married" or having a ceremony that is called "marriage" we are all equal and its damn shame in the year 2007 people still try to segregate.

The divorce rate for heterosexual marriage was at 60% last time i checked, i would assume it's nearing 75% and i'm sorry but i don't believe that cheating "levels" (i couldnt think of another word for itl ol) can be fairly weighed according to sexuality. THe fact is that some people are cheaters, and some are not, regardless of their sexual preference. That's strange anyway because out of the 7 gay people in my family, and my 5 gay friends, none of them cheat or have heard of a friend etc. cheating. Maybe it's a geographical thing. ANyway, i think that's a bold statement to make that children are affected badly by having gay parents. Conceiving a child in a homosexual relationship is a VERY pre-meditated event. It takes a lot of work and planning and let's face it; money. It's not just 2 people having sex and then YAY we are pregnant! it's in-vitro, it's adopting, it surrogate parenting. People who put this much time, energy, money and effort into the purpose of having children and starting a family sound like very good parents to me and seem that they most likely will have a consistent following of planning and effort in raising their children.





I have never seen anything to support that. I would be curious to see if there is a non-religious, non-partisan study out there that does.


Like I said this was the view of a few gay people that I met and know. I never personally looked into this...just giving a little input from the view of a few gay people

I don't want to jump on you... just ask you a question.

Since you believe that marriage is a strictly religious thing, then do you think that the government should stop "marrying" people and start "uniting" them instead?

I said for me I think of marriage FOR MYSELF in a religious way. I'm not talking about anyone else:lol That was a funny thought-though

LOL, I was just asking because personally I wouldn't have a problem with religion taking the word marriage and it only applying to people that got married in a church or whatever, but the government would HAVE to declare everyone "united" and not married in a legal context. The government couldn't give special rights or privileges to anyone who is married versus anyone who has a civil union, and only civil unions would be recognized in court and by law enforcement. Religion doesn't have an obligation to anyone to be fair or not discriminated or to award equal rights, and a lot of times it isn't technically fair. I could care less if religion told anyone they could or couldn't marry. Religion can't convict me of crimes or stop me from living how I want to. Government on the other hand... It does have an obligation to award equal rights to everyone. So, if the word marriage is the issue, then let religion have it and people who recited vows to each other in a church can call themselves married all they want, but to have a legally recognized partnership you have to get a civil union from the government, and so that the government makes "no laws respecting an establishment of religion", anyone can get a civil union no matter what gender they are.

I think that's a fair compromise. LOL.

LOL, I was just asking because personally I wouldn't have a problem with religion taking the word marriage and it only applying to people that got married in a church or whatever, but the government would HAVE to declare everyone "united" and not married in a legal context. The government couldn't give special rights or privileges to anyone who is married versus anyone who has a civil union, and only civil unions would be recognized in court and by law enforcement. Religion doesn't have an obligation to anyone to be fair or not discriminated or to award equal rights, and a lot of times it isn't technically fair. I could care less if religion told anyone they could or couldn't marry. Religion can't convict me of crimes or stop me from living how I want to. Government on the other hand... It does have an obligation to award equal rights to everyone. So, if the word marriage is the issue, then let religion have it and people who recited vows to each other in a church can call themselves married all they want, but to have a legally recognized partnership you have to get a civil union from the government, and so that the government makes "no laws respecting an establishment of religion", anyone can get a civil union no matter what gender they are.

I think that's a fair compromise. LOL.

Well said. I say I'd consider myself married if I made vows before a priest, however it wouldn't even get that far because you need a marriage lisence and other legalities to get married in a church, I believe:lmao

it doesn't matter to me, you can't help who you fall in love with.

Well, the Romans and Egyptians not only supported, but also encouraged gays in the military-at the time, it was thought that you would fight harder to protect your lover, then you would to protect your friend. I personally have no probelm with gays being in the military as long as they do their job properly. Some people think that it gives the military a bad name, but then again, so does adultery, being in debt, getting DUI's, ect. And all of those things happen in the military so I really don't see what the big deal is.

I will admit - I feel uncomfortable about the whole homosexual culture. That doesn't make me 'homophobic' - just uncomfortable. I do NOT agree with 'gay marriage' because Marriage is between a man and a woman. Civil unions I'm ok with.

Well said. I say I'd consider myself married if I made vows before a priest, however it wouldn't even get that far because you need a marriage lisence and other legalities to get married in a church, I believe:lmao

Depends on the church. There are churches that will marry gay people, even if it isn't legal.

I'll just say this for now- EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE HAPPY. NO MATTER WHAT. AND RELIGION SHOULD NOT DICTATE THE LAW BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS RELIGIOUS.

I totally get what you saying. It either is or isn't. But like I said, maybe because marriage is traditionally between a man and woman

I just don't have the energy to read all of these responses right now :lol But I think this is a good place to voice one of my biggest problems with the whole issue. So marriage is traditionally between a man and a woman, so it should remain that way? Well on that arguement . . . women have TRADITIONALLY not worked, dictators have TRADITIONALLY used violence to impose their wants, until 30 years ago blacks in this country were TRADITIONALLY treated as inferior, doctors TRADITIONALLY used leeches, it could go on & on but you get my point. Part of progressing as a society is the changing of traditions, of practices, of everything. Okay so it has worked for so long, whatever, that doesn't mean it is still relevant in today's world.

Depends on the church. There are churches that will marry gay people, even if it isn't legal.

I was referring to my church though :lol

But like I said, maybe because marriage is traditionally between a man and woman

Traditionally a Maltese terrior was a Maltese terrior, and traditionally a Poodle was a Poodle. Now you can buy Malpoodles.

Times change, and so do traditions. I think we need to adjust to modern society. And stop discriminating against it.

(Btw this post isn't directed to you, I was just using it as an example).

Traditionally a Maltese terrior was a Maltese terrior, and traditionally a Poodle was a Poodle. Now you can buy Malpoodles.

Times change, and so do traditions. I think we need to adjust to modern society. And stop discriminating against it.

(Btw this post isn't directed to you, I was just using it as an example).

:agree Exactly what I was saying!

Simmy- Random question, are same-sex unions legal in Australia?

Excuse my ignorance!

I am very live and let live when it comes to what other consenting adults want to do with their personal lives.

There's been quite a debate about it. Only because of the catholic church. I do think gay marriage is allowed though. I'm not 100% sure. Makes no difference to me. When the church is running things- not much of what I think matters :rolleyes

There's been quite a debate about it. Only because of the catholic church. I do think gay marriage is allowed though. I'm not 100% sure. Makes no difference to me. When the church is running things- not much of what I think matters :rolleyes

Oh I see..is Australia very religious? I feel so stupid:duh

personally i'm against it being called marriage (to me that's between a man and woman) but i do think they should have all the same benefits through insurance and all that as a heterosexual couple. i've had plenty of homosexual friends that were some of my best friends but i dont' want to see pda from them or anyone.

uh-oh guess i'm prejudice on this too

I agree with this to a point. I believe marriage is a union between a man and a women. If people choose to have a same sex relationship thats is their decision. I do not feel they should be able to get the benifits a marriage provides. I have homosexual friends. It's just not the lifestyle I believe in.Now if I ever had to experience this with my kids my opinion may change, I don't know, but right now it's just not a type of marriage I support.JMO I am not against anyone being gay. To each his own. Just the marriage issue. I do not want to see massive pda from anyone not just homosexuals.

I don't understand why it shouldn't be called marriage...

I am all for the right of ANY citizen in this country to enter a LEGAL CONTRACT with another citizen of this country. That's what it comes down to for me. I believe that people are born gay (and there is increasing scientific evidence to support that belief), but even if they weren't it shouldn't matter. We are supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and telling someone that they can't be legally bound to whoever they want based on personal annoyance or religious belief goes against everything our country stands for.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Letting gay people "marry" (or whatever you think it should be called) doesn't force anyone else to do anything they don't want to do.

I guess thats what I was trying to say but you did it better. I don't think they shouldn't be allowed a relationship. Anyone has that right. But I don't feel it should be called a marriage and include the things that come from a union.

I was referring to my church though :lol

LOL, oh okay YOUR church. LOL. Now I got ya. Yeah the church I got married in expected a marriage license too. I am atheist and got married in a church... imagine that! LOL.

Um......no not really. Most of our people say they are in a religion.. but that basically means what religion we are born into. It's not so much of us actually practising our beliefs I am born into the Church of Christ- however- I don't practice it.

Here are the figures.

Catholic 26.4%, Anglican 20.5%, other Christian 20.5%, Buddhist 1.9%, Muslim 1.5%, other 1.2%, unspecified 12.7%, none 15.3% (2001 Census)

Yeah- I could say only about 30% of Australians are religious. So it's not like the US and other countries. Most just say "yes" when people ask if they believe in god and say "no" when asked if they actually pray to god on a daily basis. And say "I don't know" when asked if they believe in heaven and hell. :shrug

I agree with this to a point. I believe marriage is a union between a man and a women. If people choose to have a same sex relationship thats is their decision. I do not feel they should be able to get the benifits a marriage provides. I have homosexual friends. It's just not the lifestyle I believe in.Now if I ever had to experience this with my kids my opinion may change, I don't know, but right now it's just not a type of marriage I support.JMO I am not against anyone being gay. To each his own. Just the marriage issue. I do not want to see massive pda from anyone not just homosexuals.

I'm sorry but on this I have to be a little rude and say you are wrong. My cousin was in a committed gay relationship (with a man he met while serving in the army together btw) for over 40 years. When his partner passed away after a long battle with cancer it was very difficult for my cousin to do the things that he needed to to take care of their estate, much of which went to hospitals bills because he was retired when he got sick & my cousin's insurance didn't cover him. They had been together for 40 years! His partner had nursed my aunt back to health when she fell and broke her hip! He payed for two of my other cousins to go to college when they couldn't! What the hell gives anyone the right to decide he can't be a part of my family?! After all that he did he had the right to be legally a part of my family, to be legally a husband, an uncle a brother-in-law.

I agree with this to a point. I believe marriage is a union between a man and a women. If people choose to have a same sex relationship thats is their decision. I do not feel they should be able to get the benifits a marriage provides. I have homosexual friends. It's just not the lifestyle I believe in.Now if I ever had to experience this with my kids my opinion may change, I don't know, but right now it's just not a type of marriage I support.JMO I am not against anyone being gay. To each his own. Just the marriage issue. I do not want to see massive pda from anyone not just homosexuals.

i am sorry that is outragous.

dont they love the person the same? between the two dont they make the same commitment? they share the same day to day responsibilities as a couple? just because they fall in love with someone of the same sex means they can't me married, they are the same species right?

I'm sorry but on this I have to be a little rude and say you are wrong. My cousin was in a committed gay relationship (with a man he met while serving in the army together btw) for over 40 years. When his partner passed away after a long battle with cancer it was very difficult for my cousin to do the things that he needed to to take care of their estate, much of which went to hospitals bills because he was retired when he got sick & my cousin's insurance didn't cover him. They had been together for 40 years! His partner had nursed my aunt back to health when she fell and broke her hip! He payed for two of my other cousins to go to college when they couldn't! What the hell gives anyone the right to decide he can't be a part of my family?! After all that he did he had the right to be legally a part of my family, to be legally a husband, an uncle a brother-in-law.

very well said

You grab the popcorn, I'll grab the vodka ;)

This is a serious issue, how can you be so irreverant? It's popcorn and MUDSLIDES! You should be ashamed. Sheesh.

I had a mudslide the other day. I only had one glass before I passed out *I was awake for 36 hours* so I totally forgot to put it in the fridge....I hope it's still ok to drink- cos im drinking it tonight.

If they want to get married, why not? Its not like heterosexual marriage are shining beacons of hope with divorce, infidelity, domestic abuse and bad taste in decorating (just try to find that problem in a gay marriage!). Of my friends the longest lasting and most healthy relationship I know is among a couple of gay friends. 12 years and going strong. They just bought a house.

Marriage has been around LONG before christianity. If a church doesn't approve, don't perform the service, they can go to the JOP just like we did.

The definition of marriage is "A marriage is an interpersonal relationship with governmental, social, or religious recognition, usually intimate and sexual, and often created as a contract"

In 2004, the American Anthropological Association released this statement:[24]

The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution. Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies.

And for those who claim this means our society is becoming more immoral, I point you to the book "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, a in depth look at life and society in the middle ages that points out things such as:

-marriages were announced when the bride to be's pregnancy started showing. If she was a particularly user friendly gal she might have a choice of grooms

-families all slept in the same room, often in the same bed. Children saw plenty of sex and would even engage in sex play themselves. Sex and nudity was not hidden at all.

-some families would have girls in as maids to help with the cooking and cleaning. And when they became pregnant if not married off (for the baby was usually the masters) the baby was often raised with the household children.

I'll just say this for now- EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE HAPPY. NO MATTER WHAT. AND RELIGION SHOULD NOT DICTATE THE LAW BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS RELIGIOUS.

AMEN SISTAAAH!! lol I am SO with you on this.

If they want to get married, why not? Its not like heterosexual marriage are shining beacons of hope with divorce, infidelity, domestic abuse and bad taste in decorating (just try to find that problem in a gay marriage!). Of my friends the longest lasting and most healthy relationship I know is among a couple of gay friends. 12 years and going strong. They just bought a house.

Marriage has been around LONG before christianity. If a church doesn't approve, don't perform the service, they can go to the JOP just like we did.

The definition of marriage is



And for those who claim this means our society is becoming more immoral, I point you to the book "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, a in depth look at life and society in the middle ages that points out things such as:

-marriages were announced when the bride to be's pregnancy started showing. If she was a particularly user friendly gal she might have a choice of grooms

-families all slept in the same room, often in the same bed. Children saw plenty of sex and would even engage in sex play themselves. Sex and nudity was not hidden at all.

-some families would have girls in as maids to help with the cooking and cleaning. And when they became pregnant if not married off (for the baby was usually the masters) the baby was often raised with the household children.


:congrats

you've just won the BEST POST OF THE THREAD AWARD!! congratulations, your trophy's in the back.


lmao

seriously though, well thougt out, very nice delivery, and my god did it get me thinking!

I normally stay out of these sorts of things, however, tonight I am bored and lonely so here are my pennies, as scattered as they may be.
Traditionally marriage was a contract, between a father and a groom. We women were nothing more than property, first our fathers' and then our husbands'. We were viewed as little more than a goat or cow, items to be bargined for based on our worth. We were not considered persons under the law, hence why we had to fight so hard to get the vote and all the other rights that we now take for granted.
I also find it funny that the very same arguments against gay marriage were used against interracial marriage.
It was illegal for people of different races to be married. The naysayers would bring religion (its against god, yadayada), the children would suffer, it would hurt society. Yes, we are still evolving with race, but very few people would speak out against interracial marriage (I have yet to read the other thread).
Marriage has evolved. We women actually get to chose when we marry or if we want to marry at all. I am not sure how many goats I am worth, probably not many.
Our views on marriage has evolved, and we as a people have moved forward no worse for wear. We hetrosexuals have made a mess out of marriage, why not let others try their hand at it... they certainly can not do worse than us.
Just think of all the things we humans have discovered. We no longer think that the Earth is the centre of the universe, we know now that the Earth is not flat, people of all races and religions have found love. I just think that in a 100 years people will view our treatment of homosexuals, the way we see any of the race driven ugliness of our past.
Marriage has evolved before and it will evolve again. No one is expecting anyone else to be gay any more than the interracial couples expected us to run out and do who they did.
Okay, so that was long winded and mighty confusing... sorry for intruding on your debate.
Carry on.

This is just my opinion.

I don't agree with homosexuality. It goes against my beilef (notice I didn't say religion.) I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.

On the other hand, if a gay couple wants to be joined in a civil union, let them go for it. What should they not have to pay the taxes and the penilties that a straight couple does? I don't believe I should judge someone because of their life style. I don't have to agree with it but not make a big deal about it.

As for the miltary thing, I am a big believer in don't ask don't tell. Face it, if the guys are in the locker room and one is gay and they feel uncomfortable, should they build another locker room for that? That would be like having the co-ed locker rooms. Opens up another can of worms.

I find it interesting that in discussions about this topic, it's usually the really religious people that are against gay marriage, because it is "wrong". Well, isn't not very christian-like to judge people? And by saying that being gay is wrong, that is judging. So, I say get over it, let people marry who they want. If God or whatever higher power you care to believe in has a problem with it, then He or She will deal with it when the time comes :P

I find it interesting that in discussions about this topic, it's usually the really religious people that are against gay marriage, because it is "wrong". Well, isn't not very christian-like to judge people? And by saying that being gay is wrong, that is judging. So, I say get over it, let people marry who they want. If God or whatever higher power you care to believe in has a problem with it, then He or She will deal with it when the time comes :P

Thats how I feel too..Its not our right to judge.If there really is a God he should be the only one judging not people on this earth.

They should be able to get married just like straight people with all the rights and benefits also.Their love and commitment to each other isnt any different.

I see some of the same people who disagree or think interracial relationships are inappropriate are against homosexual ones also.Its just really sad. We all are just trying to live our lives in happiness without others judging for trivial things such as race, ethnicity and sexual orientation etc. I would never try to go against someones happiness if it is not physically or mentally harming them.

I'll just say this for now- EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE HAPPY. NO MATTER WHAT. AND RELIGION SHOULD NOT DICTATE THE LAW BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS RELIGIOUS.

Well, there WAS seperation of church and state up until homosexuals wanted to marry...then that all went right out the window. All of sudden, the American people were concerned that if gays and lesbians were allowed to marry, this country would become an immoral mess.
All of sudden, American's were worried about being viewed as moral people, as if homosexuality is the sole cause of the way this country is headed.
Puh-leaze. :rolleyes

If you're going to seperate the two, then do it and leave it alone...


We hetrosexuals have made a mess out of marriage, why not let others try their hand at it... they certainly can not do worse than us.


That's what I'm screamin, man.



If they want to get married, why not? Its not like heterosexual marriage are shining beacons of hope with divorce, infidelity, domestic abuse and bad taste in decorating (just try to find that problem in a gay marriage!).
Marriage has been around LONG before christianity. If a church doesn't approve, don't perform the service, they can go to the JOP just like we did.

The definition of marriage is A marriage is an interpersonal relationship with governmental, social, or religious recognition, usually intimate and sexual, and often created as a contract"

I guess that by allowing gays and lesbians to marry, American's feel like they'll just make heterosexual marriages worse somehow. You are SO wrong for the decorating comment. :lol

And thank you for providing that definition of 'marriage'. Nowhere in there do I see 'between a man and a woman'.


I find it interesting that in discussions about this topic, it's usually the really religious people that are against gay marriage, because it is "wrong". Well, isn't not very christian-like to judge people? And by saying that being gay is wrong, that is judging. So, I say get over it, let people marry who they want. If God or whatever higher power you care to believe in has a problem with it, then He or She will deal with it when the time comes :P

Thank you....its not up to humans to judge people for the way they live their lives. If you believe that deeply in your religion, then you would let your higher power deal with it when the time comes. Its not up to you to decide whats right or wrong.
I have a lesbian friend who has a T-shirt that says "Lord, protect me from your followers" and I absolutely love it. Its so funny to me how people can take religion and twist it all around to make it fit the situation.

You are SO wrong for the decorating comment. :lol


I totally had to put that in there, a couple I know bought a house a couple years ago and the FIRST thing they were freaking out over is the walls and how they HAD to get the walls painted or they just couldn't even deal with living in the place. :hehe And one of them thinks his parents don't know he's gay. I mean COME ON.


And BettyBoop...don't sell yourself short, sometimes a bride would be worth a COW. Now that's an uppity bride. Course you never know, it wasn't always about how great the woman was, extra sweeteners in the deal could have encouraged someone to marry the ugly girl in the family. "Ok Mustafa, we'll throw in 6 goats, a milking cow, a donkey, that small strip of land at the back of our property AND a burlap bag with eye holes cut out, how's that?"

i have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriages. if two people love each other and want to get married, let them. i've heard the argument that it lessens "traditional" marriages...what's the divorce rate for heterosexual marriage at nowadays? last i heard, it was above 50% i believe. IMHO, whether your heterosexual, homosexual, different races/ethnicities, etc you should be able to marry the person you love. if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but people should at least have the right to do it.

I believe in civil unions, but not marriages. But that's because marriage TO ME is a religious and ONLY a religious word. I would consider myself married even if I didn't have a marriage lisence if I vowed before God by a priest. I would NOT consider myself married unless I got married before God by a priest. But that's ME.


kara, i'm just curious...i know you said all of that in reference to yourself/your relationship, but what do you think about people like me: my husband and i got married by a JOP at an inn...do you not consider that a marriage because we didn't do it a chuch/synagogue/mosque/etc with a priest/pastor/rabbi/etc?

If they want to get married, why not? Its not like heterosexual marriage are shining beacons of hope with divorce, infidelity, domestic abuse and bad taste in decorating (just try to find that problem in a gay marriage!). Of my friends the longest lasting and most healthy relationship I know is among a couple of gay friends. 12 years and going strong. They just bought a house.


I completely agree with you. i have strong opinions on this. i think anyone who says "i dont think gay couples should be able to get married or have the same rights as married couples" is ignorant. How can you deny people that right? They are human just like us.

kara, i'm just curious...i know you said all of that in reference to yourself/your relationship, but what do you think about people like me: my husband and i got married by a JOP at an inn...do you not consider that a marriage because we didn't do it a chuch/synagogue/mosque/etc with a priest/pastor/rabbi/etc?

im curious about this too.

I do not believe they should get any of the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I also do not believe in homosexual marriage.

This is a serious issue, how can you be so irreverant? It's popcorn and MUDSLIDES! You should be ashamed. Sheesh.
HAHA I just saw this post now! Yeah mudslides it is!

I do not believe they should get any of the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I also do not believe in homosexual marriage.

okay. why?

because the dictionary does not define the meaning of marriage for me, the Bible and my faith do. And notice I as well did not use "religion"

I disagree with the lifestyle. It is not withing God's plan for us, therefore I do not agree with it as acceptable. I know that steps on toes, but my opinion on that way of life does not alter my opinion of the individuals. I'm not saying that "If you are homosexual you are sinful, dirty, and unworthy" because we all carry the burden of sin. It will not hold me back from learning about another person's views, or meeting a great new friend. Being gay does not define who a person is, ust their sexuality. A sexuality that I just happen to disagree with.


And for those who say that it isn't our place to judge and how it is ignorant, I am not judging, and by saying I am doing so is ignorant.

If homosexuality is really a genetic thing, wouldn't that raise some questions when it comes to God?


To answer the OP, it doesn't seem right, but who I am to judge?

because the dictionary does not define the meaning of marriage for me, the Bible and my faith do.


So what about people who aren't religious? Is it is fair for them to have their meaning of marriage defined by something that they don't follow?

If homosexuality is really a genetic thing, wouldn't that raise some questions when it comes to God?

I don't think its a choice for them...after all, did you (not saying 'you' specifically, just in general) CHOOSE to be straight? No, its just the way you are.
People are too busy trying to judge FOR God the way God feels about homosexuality and homosexuals...how in the world do you know how he feels about them or their lifestyle?

if it was in a voting sit. i would not ote...doesn't mean i wouldn't let anyone vote yes, nor would i look down upon them

and please, i really don't define my faith as "religious"

and for the last part, god clearly defines homosexuality as wrong

kara, i'm just curious...i know you said all of that in reference to yourself/your relationship, but what do you think about people like me: my husband and i got married by a JOP at an inn...do you not consider that a marriage because we didn't do it a chuch/synagogue/mosque/etc with a priest/pastor/rabbi/etc?


:rofl I cleared it up in another page when someone else asked a similar question. Yes I consider that marriage! When I made that statement- I was saying it in the context of how I get married. :)

I say, to each his own. It may not be the way I choose to live my life, but if that's how someone else wants it, then power to them. Doesn't bother me.

and for the last part, god clearly defines homosexuality as wrong

I was waiting on someone to say that...OK, where?

And since you don't define your faith as religious, I'll ask the question another way: "What about people who don't follow your faith? Is it fair for them to have the way they live defined by that?"

I am seriously not picking on you, I just really want to know.



There are LOT of things that the Bible defines as sinful, sexually and non-sexually, and I don't see people having their lifestyle judged or being denied certain rights because of them (and no, I'm not just talking about sex before marriage either).

Leviticus 18:22

And I don't think forced religion is alright at all. I don't think people should have to live my way of life. I just live the best I can for what God wants for his children. That in no way means me hating/disrespecting/putting down/judging/etc.. anyone who chooses not to. I can state my view, or how I live my life, but can't and should not be able to make others change for my faith unless one day me speaking the word lights the fire in their hearts.

I have had this debate many many times with my family. Most of my family is completely against gay marriage, although none of them are prejudiced against homosexuals or lesbians. I, however, feel differently. I've had way too many gay and lesbian friends who were in long term, extremely committed relationships. They considered themselves to be married, even though the law didn't allow it. I felt awful for them, because although they were married in their own eyes, the government and their insurance companies, etc. would not recognize the union. Those friends of mine truly loved each other, and they deserved to have the same happiness that the rest of us take for granted.

I do not believe they should get any of the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I also do not believe in homosexual marriage.


i do not believe you should get any of the same rights as other heterosexual couples..... :mumble

I've had way too many gay and lesbian friends who were in long term, extremely committed relationships. They considered themselves to be married, even though the law didn't allow it. I felt awful for them, because although they were married in their own eyes, the government and their insurance companies, etc. would not recognize the union. Those friends of mine truly loved each other, and they deserved to have the same happiness that the rest of us take for granted.

My aunt and her life partner are the same way...have been together since high school, committed to one another, and still can't view themselves as marriage or get the same rights. It pisses me off, and at the same time, makes me sad that, in 2007, people are still fighting to get equal rights in a country that was founded on the belief that everyone deserves equal rights.

Does anyone else see ANYTHING wrong with that, or is it just me?

Has anyone tried putting the shoe on the other foot? How you feel if YOU were to be THEM and be told that you couldn't marry because its 'wrong'? I doubt you would quietly slink back to your corner and be like "Well, yeah, the Bible says..."
People like to pick and choose which 'sins' should be punished and which ones shouldn't, and that makes me mad.

I forgot who posted it, but a couple of pages back, someone posted what marriage is, as defined my the dictionary. Nowhere in there did I see 'between a man and a woman'.
And someone else posted that marriage is a contract, having nothing to do with religion (as stated by the definition, not a personal definition).
Its amazing to me how people can use religion in this situation, yet in every other instance, they want to seperate church and state. Geez, make up your minds, you can't have it both ways.

i do not believe you should get any of the same rights as other heterosexual couples..... :mumble

that was very uncalled for and rude. I am not being rude whatsoever, just clearly explaining my opinion on the subject. Did you even read all of my posts? That offended me greatly.:depressed

because the dictionary does not define the meaning of marriage for me, the Bible and my faith do. And notice I as well did not use "religion"

I disagree with the lifestyle. It is not withing God's plan for us, therefore I do not agree with it as acceptable. I know that steps on toes, but my opinion on that way of life does not alter my opinion of the individuals. I'm not saying that "If you are homosexual you are sinful, dirty, and unworthy" because we all carry the burden of sin. It will not hold me back from learning about another person's views, or meeting a great new friend. Being gay does not define who a person is, ust their sexuality. A sexuality that I just happen to disagree with.


And for those who say that it isn't our place to judge and how it is ignorant, I am not judging, and by saying I am doing so is ignorant.



:blabla


:jerkit

And I know this will upset a few, but I would not be in the position of "what if it was me" because I truly do not believe that sexuality is born into you, or rather bisexuality, or homosexuality. In most cases of each (not all) there have been reported cases of sexual abuse or trauma (not necessarily sexual) from/at a young age.

that was very uncalled for and rude. I am not being rude whatsoever, just clearly explaining my opinion on the subject. Did you even read all of my posts? That offended me greatly.:depressed

oh come on now, you GOTTA be able to take what you give. I mean really. What you said greatly hurt my Aunt and my cousin who happen to be visiting me right now. If you cant take it, dont send it out.

i'm sorry, but it's true.

Kmadden, I htought this was supposed to be a debate, not reading someone else's opinion and making fun of them for it. Honestly, if you even wanted me to change my view, do you think being rude and mean would do so?

oh come on now, you GOTTA be able to take what you give. I mean really. What you said greatly hurt my Aunt and my cousin who happen to be visiting me right now. If you cant take it, dont send it out.

i'm sorry, but it's true.

I didnt "send" anything out. I GAVE MY OPINION which is what this whole debate subject was about. And if I greatly offended your family, it makes it right to hurt me because of it?

Good logic:nutts

And I know this will upset a few, but I would not be in the position of "what if it was me" because I truly do not believe that sexuality is born into you, or rather bisexuality, or homosexuality. In most cases of each (not all) there have been reported cases of sexual abuse or trauma (not necessarily sexual) from/at a young age.

Wow...that's a pretty bold statement.

I think its a shame that you wouldn't even TRY to put yourself in the shoes of someone different though....you could learn a lot from their perspective.


I really don't think anyone's picking on you....if its one thing I've learned from the forum, its that if you make bold statements like the ones you've been making, be prepared to back them up AND defend them.

Wow...that's a pretty bold statement.

I think its a shame that you wouldn't even TRY to put yourself in the shoes of someone different though....you could learn a lot from their perspective.

:yes

I have heard "their" perspective (as you put it, didn't know another way to quote it) my very best friend is bisexual, and one of my close guy friends is gay. I listen, I just don't agree and they know and understand that. My guy friend even came out to me before anyone else knowing my thoughts on the subject. It is starting to seem like heterosexuals are more against my views than the homosexuals I have met.

And I know this will upset a few, but I would not be in the position of "what if it was me" because I truly do not believe that sexuality is born into you, or rather bisexuality, or homosexuality. In most cases of each (not all) there have been reported cases of sexual abuse or trauma (not necessarily sexual) from/at a young age.

what did the bible tell you that too? seriously you need to do some more research. Guess what chica? You're wrong. I'm sorry i am like attacking you, but you have said every single ignorant statement that has ever been made about homosexuals and now i've had it. now i'm in my sarcasm mode and i'm really not sorry if i offend you because i cannot believe the things you are saying. FYI people ARE born that way, it just might take some time for them to realize it because they are SUPRESSED from the day they are born. that being said, no people dont just "turn" gay because they were sexually abused or traumatized. People who are sexually abused and traumatized, turn into sexual abusers OR they seek help and heal themselves. BY the way, where exactly did you read this so called "reported cases"?? yeah so maybe there have been a lot of homosexual people who were sexually abused when they were young. what's your point? there are a lot of heterosexual people who were abused when they were young. okay, i'm done. not even going to bother with this because you are obviously too far gone to even consider looking at things from a different point of view. Sorry to be rude, and I dont want to get any more rude. i'm officially done with this thread. PLEASE DO SOME FRIGGGGIN RESEEARRCH!!

It is starting to seem like heterosexuals are more against my views than the homosexuals I have met.

Honestly, your friends could just be trying to spare themselves and you the stress of a debate about why its 'right' or 'wrong' for fear of ruining the friendship.
Its really not personal....I'm just sick of the Bible, religion, faith, WHATEVER you want to call it, being used as a crutch for this debate. Not just in this forum, but as a whole.

I have my own personal reasons for having such strong opinons in this debate...I mean, if we're going to talk about fair and unfair, right and wrong, its UNFAIR and WRONG to deny any class/group of people rights that other people have. Period.

Honestly, your friends could just be trying to spare themselves and you the stress of a debate about why its 'right' or 'wrong' for fear of ruining the friendship.
Its really not personal....I'm just sick of the Bible, religion, faith, WHATEVER you want to call it, being used as a crutch for this debate. Not just in this forum, but as a whole.

if someone's religion is important to them why does it upset so many people (not just you) that there beliefs/faith help shape their opinions

Kmadden, I understand you're upset and why (believe me, I do. It's the very reason I'm not in this particular debate), but I think you should step back for a few minutes, take a quick walk.

if someone's religion is important to them why does it upset so many people (not just you) that there beliefs/faith help shape their opinions

I couldn't agree more!

if someone's religion is important to them why does it upset so many people (not just you) that there beliefs/faith help shape their opinions

Its fine to believe that homosexuality is wrong...I never said it wasn't. What I'm TRYING to say, the point that has been obviously lost in everything else I've said, is that its WRONG to try to make a law around personal beliefs/faith/religion and deny people certain rights because YOU (not you specifically, again, in general) think its 'wrong'. Its discriminiation, and last time I checked, discrimination is illegal.

what did the bible tell you that too? seriously you need to do some more research. Guess what chica? You're wrong. I'm sorry i am like attacking you, but you have said every single ignorant statement that has ever been made about homosexuals and now i've had it. now i'm in my sarcasm mode and i'm really not sorry if i offend you because i cannot believe the things you are saying. FYI people ARE born that way, it just might take some time for them to realize it because they are SUPRESSED from the day they are born. that being said, no people dont just "turn" gay because they were sexually abused or traumatized. People who are sexually abused and traumatized, turn into sexual abusers OR they seek help and heal themselves. BY the way, where exactly did you read this so called "reported cases"?? yeah so maybe there have been a lot of homosexual people who were sexually abused when they were young. what's your point? there are a lot of heterosexual people who were abused when they were young. okay, i'm done. not even going to bother with this because you are obviously too far gone to even consider looking at things from a different point of view. Sorry to be rude, and I dont want to get any more rude. i'm officially done with this thread. PLEASE DO SOME FRIGGGGIN RESEEARRCH!!

don't apologize, I didn't with my opinion, and you should not with yours. But just as I am being respectful of your view, you can at least give me the same respect. Be mature and talk to me like an adult. Don't "lash out" it, is not neccessary. I am not a threat to you, nor are you to me. I have done research. Nothing you have have is proven. And I never once said that ALL homosexuals were abused. You do some research as well, those are not the only two ways people can or have reacted to sexual abuse. Do not tell me to get my facts straight when your facts are obscure.

what did the bible tell you that too? seriously you need to do some more research. Guess what chica? You're wrong. I'm sorry i am like attacking you, but you have said every single ignorant statement that has ever been made about homosexuals and now i've had it. now i'm in my sarcasm mode and i'm really not sorry if i offend you because i cannot believe the things you are saying. FYI people ARE born that way, it just might take some time for them to realize it because they are SUPRESSED from the day they are born. that being said, no people dont just "turn" gay because they were sexually abused or traumatized. People who are sexually abused and traumatized, turn into sexual abusers OR they seek help and heal themselves. BY the way, where exactly did you read this so called "reported cases"?? yeah so maybe there have been a lot of homosexual people who were sexually abused when they were young. what's your point? there are a lot of heterosexual people who were abused when they were young. okay, i'm done. not even going to bother with this because you are obviously too far gone to even consider looking at things from a different point of view. Sorry to be rude, and I dont want to get any more rude. i'm officially done with this thread. PLEASE DO SOME FRIGGGGIN RESEEARRCH!!

I think this was entirely out of line, and I agree with Tawny(Goldi) that you need to take a break and relax.

if someone's religion is important to them why does it upset so many people (not just you) that there beliefs/faith help shape their opinions

It's not upsetting personally, but it's near impossible to have a fact based debate with someone who is basing their stance in a debate off of faith.

It's not upsetting personally, but it's near impossible to have a fact based debate with someone who is basing their stance in a debate off of faith.

:yes

I didnt "send" anything out. I GAVE MY OPINION which is what this whole debate subject was about. And if I greatly offended your family, it makes it right to hurt me because of it?

Good logic:nutts

Your RUDE opinion. RIGHT? YOU said it was rude for ME to say that i think you shouldnt have the same rights as other heterosexuals. So now you're trying to tell me that its NOT rude for YOU to say that you dont think homosexual people should have the same rights as heterosexuals?? This is the exact same statement, only switching the people around. where's YOUR logic!!?


okay, i am going to take goldilockz advice and go for a walk lol.

Honestly, your friends could just be trying to spare themselves and you the stress of a debate about why its 'right' or 'wrong' for fear of ruining the friendship.
Its really not personal....I'm just sick of the Bible, religion, faith, WHATEVER you want to call it, being used as a crutch for this debate. Not just in this forum, but as a whole.

I have my own personal reasons for having such strong opinons in this debate...I mean, if we're going to talk about fair and unfair, right and wrong, its UNFAIR and WRONG to deny any class/group of people rights that other people have. Period.

we have debated it, its one of my favorite things to do, but we did it in a respectful manner unlike this board. I am a very honest person, as are they, and they are not sparing me anything. And I am not using it as a crutch. It is my way of life. By making that statement you are saying my like is made of excuses. And I never said I would protest or hurt anyone or push so greatly for homosexual marriage to be outlawed. If it was voted upon, I would vote no, just as I see your right to vote yes. I would just disagree with your vote, but I cannot move the world in MY direction...nothing should ever be negatively forced.

You are not going to be open to anything I am saying, or at least read my words the way I am putting them out there. I have never attacked anyone on this post about their views, so why are people being so to me for mine? A little unfair, no? I think it is perfectly A-OK for anyone to think differently from me, but I am not heading with the majority and I am getting persecuted for it. I see my faith as legitimate enough. A debate is a series of educated of varying opinions, and I have gotten far too many "not so nice" replies. I just don't see why anyone feels the need to poke fun and patronize my beliefs when I never once did so to anyone else.

we have debated it, its one of my favorite things to do, but we did it in a respectful manner unlike this board. I am a very honest person, as are they, and they are not sparing me anything. And I am not using it as a crutch. It is my way of life. By making that statement you are saying my like is made of excuses. And I never said I would protest or hurt anyone or push so greatly for homosexual marriage to be outlawed. If it was voted upon, I would vote no, just as I see your right to vote yes. I would just disagree with your vote, but I cannot move the world in MY direction...nothing should ever be negatively forced.

This issue IS being negatively forced...even if the majority of the people voted 'for' homosexual marriage, the government, as it has done before, would make it federally illegal because of what they define marriage to be...but I digress.

OK, I can see right where this is going, because you obviously think that 'we' on the boards are being disrespectful of your opinion and that we're picking on you...so I'll just nip this in the bud...

I'm going to say "OK" and walk away.... :scared

You are not going to be open to anything I am saying, or at least read my words the way I am putting them out there. I have never attacked anyone on this post about their views, so why are people being so to me for mine? A little unfair, no? I think it is perfectly A-OK for anyone to think differently from me, but I am not heading with the majority and I am getting persecuted for it. I see my faith as legitimate enough. A debate is a series of educated of varying opinions, and I have gotten far too many "not so nice" replies. I just don't see why anyone feels the need to poke fun and patronize my beliefs when I never once did so to anyone else.

It's happened to me several times on this board. I understand where you are coming from, my religious beliefs have been mocked by a few members of this board. Most of the women on here are wonderful and tactful, I promise.

For the record, I wasn't patronizing beliefs or faith or the Bible. I was just answering a question...

This issue IS being negatively forced...even if the majority of the people voted 'for' homosexual marriage, the government, as it has done before, would make it federally illegal because of what they define marriage to be...but I digress.

OK, I can see right where this is going, because you obviously think that 'we' on the boards are being disrespectful of your opinion and that we're picking on you...so I'll just nip this in the bud...

I'm going to say "OK" and walk away.... :scared

not completely, I am fine with continuing this discussion just as long as we all respect one another. But you see, I am not trying to force the "no marriage" law. Others who claim to share my faith may, or even just others that don't agree, but that is different from me saying it. And please don't stop discussing I really do value others' opinions.

For the record, I wasn't patronizing beliefs or faith or the Bible. I was just answering a question...

I wasn't directing it towards anyone in particular. :weee

I think people need to keep in mind that religious people consider their religion as fact. For me, the Bible is fact, for me and my life. I don't care what other people believe-that's their life. They can do what they want. :)

I think people need to keep in mind that religious people consider their religion as fact. For me, the Bible is fact, for me and my life. I don't care what other people believe-that's their life. They can do what they want. :)

I understand that. That's why I don't debate with faith based stances if I don't have to :)

Kmadden, I think that you need to remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether or not we agree with them. Kkristenmarie may not hold the same views and opinions that we do, but that doesn't mean that we should take it personally or treat her opinions with disrespect. If we treat her like that, aren't we doing exactly what we are putting down...which is basically equal rights? She has the right to state her opinion, because we live in a free country, thank God, where that right is protected. We have the right to disagree with her, but I don't think we have the right to be mean to her. I don't mean to pick on you...because I have nothing against you, and I agree with you on the issue. However, whether or not you meant for your posts to come across as rude, they did. Sorry if I offended you with this.

if someone's religion is important to them why does it upset so many people (not just you) that there beliefs/faith help shape their opinions

Mostly because they pick and choose what opinions they want to carry with them in life. And honestly, for all you true christians, if god created everything on this plant aren't you being a little :sarcasm presumptuous by making any sort of judgement on others?

And what if I said that my beliefs/faith led me to the opinion that all brunettes should be treated unequal, as you are saying for homosexuals? Is that an acceptable opinion? Were Hitler's opinions on his supreme race acceptable? Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a responsibility to evaluate those opinions & determine which are acceptable/reasonable and which are not. And there is no religion in the world that makes things that are fundamentaly wrong, such as discrimination, acceptable.

Mostly because they pick and choose what opinions they want to carry with them in life. And honestly, for all you true christians, if god created everything on this plant aren't you being a little :sarcasm presumptuous by making any sort of judgement on others?

And what if I said that my beliefs/faith led me to the opinion that all brunettes should be treated unequal, as you are saying for homosexuals? Is that an acceptable opinion? Were Hitler's opinions on his supreme race acceptable? Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a responsibility to evaluate those opinions & determine which are acceptable/reasonable and which are not. And there is no religion in the world that makes things that are fundamentaly wrong, such as discrimination, acceptable.

What's a true Christian? Can you define that for me?

Mostly because they pick and choose what opinions they want to carry with them in life. And honestly, for all you true christians, if god created everything on this plant aren't you being a little :sarcasm presumptuous by making any sort of judgement on others?

And what if I said that my beliefs/faith led me to the opinion that all brunettes should be treated unequal, as you are saying for homosexuals? Is that an acceptable opinion? Were Hitler's opinions on his supreme race acceptable? Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a responsibility to evaluate those opinions & determine which are acceptable/reasonable and which are not. And there is no religion in the world that makes things that are fundamentaly wrong, such as discrimination, acceptable.


hey i'm just arguing both sides ;) everyone is entitled to their opinions. just because i don't like the phelps family doesn't mean they dont' have the right to say it. or just because i disagree with what the kkk thinks and believes does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to say it. that's what makes this country great, they can.

ETA: just because someone's opinions differ from yours doesn't mean they are going to discriminate against anyone.

Mostly because they pick and choose what opinions they want to carry with them in life. And honestly, for all you true christians, if god created everything on this plant aren't you being a little :sarcasm presumptuous by making any sort of judgement on others?

And what if I said that my beliefs/faith led me to the opinion that all brunettes should be treated unequal, as you are saying for homosexuals? Is that an acceptable opinion? Were Hitler's opinions on his supreme race acceptable? Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a responsibility to evaluate those opinions & determine which are acceptable/reasonable and which are not. And there is no religion in the world that makes things that are fundamentaly wrong, such as discrimination, acceptable.


I agree.

i never judged them as people, I have already made argument that I think already answers you "sarcastic" questions...

Mostly because they pick and choose what opinions they want to carry with them in life. And honestly, for all you true christians, if god created everything on this plant aren't you being a little :sarcasm presumptuous by making any sort of judgement on others?

And what if I said that my beliefs/faith led me to the opinion that all brunettes should be treated unequal, as you are saying for homosexuals? Is that an acceptable opinion? Were Hitler's opinions on his supreme race acceptable? Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a responsibility to evaluate those opinions & determine which are acceptable/reasonable and which are not. And there is no religion in the world that makes things that are fundamentaly wrong, such as discrimination, acceptable.

And FYI, Christians aren't the only religion or group of people that are against gay marriage. And also, not all Christians are against gay marriage. So you made a rather blanket statement

What's a true Christian? Can you define that for me?

No I can't. But then again I am not the one who throws the word around to justify myself & my opinions. I would suggest you ask someone who has used it to define themselves.

hey i'm just arguing both sides ;) everyone is entitled to their opinions. just because i don't like the phelps family doesn't mean they dont' have the right to say it. or just because i disagree with what the kkk thinks and believes does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to say it. that's what makes this country great, they can.

And the other thing that makes this country great is that, for the majority, we look at groups like the KKK and decide that while they are entitled to their opinions they are still a bunch of bigotted, ignorant morons who should have no say in the laws we create. Sure everyone is allowed an opinion but everyone is also allowed to be wrong.

i never judged them as people, I have already made argument that I think already answers you "sarcastic" questions...

But you did judge them as people. You think that because of their sexual orientation they should not be afforded the same rights as the rest of us. How is that not judging someone? You are saying you don't think they are worthy or your rights.

so are you the one to say that my christian views are wrong? That is why we have a system of voting, where majority rules.

so are you the one to say that my christian views are wrong? That is why we have a system of voting, where majority rules.

She never said Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others.

But you did judge them as people. You think that because of their sexual orientation they should not be afforded the same rights as the rest of us. How is that not judging someone? You are saying you don't think they are worthy or your rights.

When did I say those words? "I don't think they are worthy?"

Never did I say that..actually I am pretty sure I made it crystal clear that I DID NOT feel that way. Read my words before you quote me.

No I can't. But then again I am not the one who throws the word around to justify myself & my opinions. I would suggest you ask someone who has used it to define themselves.



And the other thing that makes this country great is that, for the majority, we look at groups like the KKK and decide that while they are entitled to their opinions they are still a bunch of bigotted, ignorant morons who should have no say in the laws we create. Sure everyone is allowed an opinion but everyone is also allowed to be wrong.

Why state it if you don't even know what it is? Is there an exact definition? I don't believe so. There are so many different denominations, one cannot pinpoint what a TRUE Christian is. :)

I do not believe they should get any of the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I also do not believe in homosexual marriage.

Here ya go.

You said they shouldn't have the same rights.

She never said Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others.

I didn't think she did, I'm sorry if it sounded as though I implied

When did I say those words? "I don't think they are worthy?"

Never did I say that..actually I am pretty sure I made it crystal clear that I DID NOT feel that way. Read my words before you quote me.

Exactly, you never said that. Perhaps if she quoted you directly in text, she would have got a more clear representation of what you were trying to say.

I do not believe they should get any of the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I also do not believe in homosexual marriage.

When did I say those words? "I don't think they are worthy?"

Never did I say that..actually I am pretty sure I made it crystal clear that I DID NOT feel that way. Read my words before you quote me.

Okay I quoted where you said it. You can hide it in a pretty package but you are saying the same thing.

When someone says "I don't think they should have the same rights as I do", to ME, personal opinion here, it implies that they are not "worthy" of MY rights.

Here ya go.

You said they shouldn't have the same rights.

:lol you found it faster then I did!

they should not get the same right to marry as a heterosexual couple.
clearer?

:lol you found it faster then I did!

That WAS pretty quick, Tawny! :lol

Why state it if you don't even know what it is? Is there an exact definition? I don't believe so. There are so many different denominations, one cannot pinpoint what a TRUE Christian is. :)

Fine how about 'those who call themselves christians'. Is that definition enough for you?

Okay I quoted where you said it. You can hide it in a pretty package but you are saying the same thing.

I don't see why people are only quoting Kristenmarie, there were other of people saying they didn't approve of gay marriage either.

And, she's not going against what any one is saying, and people have been disrespectful to her throughout this thread (not you I don't think, but others)

Okay I quoted where you said it. You can hide it in a pretty package but you are saying the same thing.

I DID not say that. Not a pretty package, I don't judge people on how "worthy" they are, everyone is equal. You saying that I think someone is below me for my faith is VERY judgmental..

Fine how about 'those who call themselves christians'. Is that definition enough for you?

Sounds good to me:)

they should not get the same right to marry as a heterosexual couple.
clearer?

Sure, clearer & just as wrong.

they should not get the same right to marry as a heterosexual couple.
clearer?

How is someone who "should not get the same rights" still considered "worthy"? That makes it seem like they are less than worthy of the rights YOU have as a heterosexual.

everyone is equal

If the goverment believed that, we wouldn't be having this debate.

If she's not attacking what you believe-why would you do that to her? She's clarified herself several times now.

How can you even say that when you have misquoted me more than once? Who are you to say that I am wrong for having faith and living by it? You are being more judgmental than you had even implied i was...

K well, my question keeps getting missed in the mayhem :giggle

Oh well. Time for WoW

this is not an issue of worthy-ness! Why are ya'll turning it into that? Am I the one who threw that word out to begin with? No. Ya'll have twisted my beliefs into something they are not. We are not dealing with people, it was all based on a sexuality that I just happen to disagree with. I have nothing aainst homosexuals, just their sexuality.

I DID not say that. Not a pretty package, I don't judge people on how "worthy" they are, everyone is equal. You saying that I think someone is below me for my faith is VERY judgmental..

You did not say what? That they weren't worthy? Your right- you didn't use that exact word but that is still what you said. If that isn't what you meant then tell me- why shouldn't they get the same rights as heterosexual couples? I am sorry if your faith has led you to this belief because it is so negative. There are many who have taken faith & it has led them to the opposite belief.

That's why I was asking for clarification ;)

You did not say what? That they weren't worthy? Your right- you didn't use that exact word but that is still what you said. If that isn't what you meant then tell me- why shouldn't they get the same rights as heterosexual couples? I am sorry if your faith has led you to this belief because it is so negative. There are many who have taken faith & it has led them to the opposite belief.

Every faith is different ;)

this is not an issue of worthy-ness! Why are ya'll turning it into that? Am I the one who threw that word out to begin with? No. Ya'll have twisted my beliefs into something they are not. We are not dealing with people, it was all based on a sexuality that I just happen to disagree with. I have nothing aainst homosexuals, just their sexuality.

Don't you get it?!?! Someone's sexuality is a defining factor in who they are!! Seperating someone from their sexuality is like seperating them from their gender.

You did not say what? That they weren't worthy? Your right- you didn't use that exact word but that is still what you said. If that isn't what you meant then tell me- why shouldn't they get the same rights as heterosexual couples? I am sorry if your faith has led you to this belief because it is so negative. There are many who have taken faith & it has led them to the opposite belief.

I believe your view is negative. I have already answered the question as to why I do not believe they should be allowed the same rights. OVER and over I have clearly defined my views. Read everything I wrote, and then ask a new question. I am fine with that but don't beat a dead horse..