A new congressional report appears to undercut efforts in Congress to approve bigger military pay raises by concluding that the “gap” between military and civilian pay, which lawmakers are trying to close, no longer exists.
The report, released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office, the nonpartisan analytical arm of Congress, is not really a surprise. Budget analysts for Congress, the White House and the Pentagon have claimed for years that the pay gap — measured by comparing military and private-sector wage growth over the past two decades — is a flawed and inadequate way to measure military compensation because it counts only basic pay, which is only a small part of the direct and indirect compensation received by service members.
Basic pay, food and housing allowances, and the monetary advantage that derives from the fact that both of those allowances are tax-free, resulted in a 21 percent boost in total compensation for the average enlisted member over the past six years, according to the CBO report. And that doesn’t include the value of deferred compensation, such as retired pay and health benefits for retirees and their families, or the value of noncash fringe benefits, such as subsidized on-base shopping, child care and other community services, the report says.
The report was done at the request of the Senate Budget Committee, which asked specifically for a comparison of military to civilian rates of pay for enlisted personnel, who make up about 83 percent of the armed forces, said CBO Director Peter Orszag.
CBO analyst Matthew Goldberg said it is difficult to compare military and civilian occupations because there are many unique aspects to military life. But when using a broad definition of military compensation, it appears military people are paid at a rate equal to the 75th percentile of private-sector workers with similar education levels. In other words, service members are paid, on average, more than 75 percent of private-sector workers with similar education levels.
That is slightly better than the standard set by the Defense Department, which has strived in recent years to set military pay so that it matches salaries for the 70th percentile of private-sector workers.
Because the comparisons are difficult, Goldberg said another test of whether the military is paying enough is to look at recruiting and retention. While there are some problems and gaps in those areas, the services generally appear to be meeting goals and could use bonuses and special pays to cover shortfalls, Goldberg said.
Military payroll costs are a major budget issue, with Pentagon and service officials warning that pay and benefits for active, reserve and retired personnel and their family members have reached the point where they are squeezing weapons modernization projects out of the budget. The squeeze is only going to get worse, Goldberg said, warning that the planned buildup of Army active-duty strength over the next few years will add $5 billion a year to the defense budget by 2013.
By CBO’s measurement, enlisted personnel make about twice as much as they believe because of non-cash benefits (see chart). This is the same point made by budget-conscious lawmakers since the start of the all-volunteer force in the 1970s — and one reason why service members receive an annual statement showing the total value of military pay and benefits, including a list of fringe benefits they may or may not use.
One of the report’s suggestions is to lump military cash benefits, to include housing and food allowances, into a single payment and to more prominently notify people about the value of non-cash benefits, which could work to both quell complaints about low pay and make the Defense Department and Congress more aware of the effect of increasing or decreasing the number of people in the military or in adjusting pay.
The report comes as Congress is working on provisions of the 2008 defense budget that would provide military pay raises slightly larger than raises in the private sector, a plan aimed at closing the pay gap that CBO says doesn’t exist.
Under the House version of the 2008 defense authorization bill, military pay increases for January 2008 through January 2011 would be 0.5 percentage points larger than increases in average private-sector raises, as measured by the Labor Department’s Employment Cost Index.
This would result in a Jan. 1, 2008, pay increase of 3.5 percent for all ranks, 0.5 percentage points more than the Bush administration had requested. The Senate version of the defense policy bill also proposes a 3.5 percent raise in 2008, but does not mandate continuing bigger pay raises through 2011.
The CBO report not only says the pay gap doesn’t exist, but also faults the practice of linking annual military raises to the Employment Cost Index, a measurement of average private-sector raises calculated by the Labor Department’s Bureau of Labor Statistics. Service members generally are younger and less educated than the average workers measured by the index, the report says, which makes such comparison inaccurate.

Discuss: Report says there is no pay gap. What do you think? (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1559437)

DH has been doing his job for 7 years. According to the tv commercials for technical schools for his job, we're BARELY making the "starting" salary of his job those commercials tout for civilians. That's with base pay, BAS and BAH all counted (not inculding the unpaid benefits like health insurance since I don't know what that would cost in the civilian world). So I think we're still a little behind.

Oh so they say that due to all the allowances, it's not comparable? Well then it's also not comparable because most private sector jobs are based on 40-50 hours weeks, not 14 hour days, or being gone for weeks or months at a time while the person in the civi side who gets paid the "same" is going home at 5 every night. :no :thinking

I personally don't think it evens out. I have always believed that the military should get paid more. My fiance thinks they get paid fine, and he says he would still be enlisted in the military even if they got paid less. He's not in it for the money, I guess. But I really don't think everything evens out.

I can see both sides of this. Jas and I were just talking about this today... out of the military he makes x dollars... yes, the base salary is x dollars more than he made in the mil.. but out of his salary, comes our rent money, our $$ for utilities, and over $350/month as medical/dental/life insurance (not to mention if we're hospitalized or need major procedures, that comes out of his salary as well...what's not covered by our insurance) if we were in the military still, he'd be making less $$ as base, but our housing and insurance would be paid for.

however...


this is for an 8-4 job.... no deployments.... so if you do take into consideration when deployed... yes, the military would make less... however, there's family sep paz, spec duty pay, haz pay, etc.


so honestly, i'm not even sure anymore.

Oh so they say that due to all the allowances, it's not comparable? Well then it's also not comparable because most private sector jobs are based on 40-50 hours weeks, not 14 hour days, or being gone for weeks or months at a time while the person in the civi side who gets paid the "same" is going home at 5 every night. :no :thinking

Exactly what I was thinking-most civilians get overtime (unless they are on salary or what not). And even those who travel on buisness, they are not in harms way. I have the most respect for military members then any other profession, and I believe they should be compensated better for everything they endure to make us safe and protect our freedom.

that's bs that it's equivalent. the job dh does and the hours he works for the military he'd get paid much more as entry level in the civilian world

Oh so they say that due to all the allowances, it's not comparable? Well then it's also not comparable because most private sector jobs are based on 40-50 hours weeks, not 14 hour days, or being gone for weeks or months at a time while the person in the civi side who gets paid the "same" is going home at 5 every night. :no :thinking



exactly!! I am SURE they don't consider the hours they work AT ALL!

Congress makes me sick with the way they justify where money goes. They are QUICK to vote their raises through though! QUICK QUICK! Must be hard to sit there in a leather chair for a couple hours a day and read the paper... CSPAN really lets you know what's going on up there! :rolleyes

Then how did my friend buy his Mercedes? :thinking

How am I managing to pay off my debts so quickly when I couldn't when I was in? :thinking

Its not even anywhere near the same for some people. between Jason's degree, experience, security clearance, certifications, schooling and everything else, the STARTING pay for jobs that he is fully qualified for is about 20K more per year and I don't mean 20K more per year before we add in things like BAH. I mean 20K more AFTER you add in ALL allowances. I'm sure that the same isn't true for everyone, depending on schooling and such, but I know that the vast majority of people would be making more out of the military. When I calculate Jason's pay, I don't calculate just basic pay... I don't know why anyone would do that. I calculate ALL of his pay- BAH, BAS, any allowances we receive, PLUS I factor in a couple hundred extra per month that would go towards insurance copays and premiums. All of that is part of the package, IMO. So, when we do job searches, we do not and will not even look at a job that pays less than what he makes TOTAL right now in the military.

Oh so they say that due to all the allowances, it's not comparable? Well then it's also not comparable because most private sector jobs are based on 40-50 hours weeks, not 14 hour days, or being gone for weeks or months at a time while the person in the civi side who gets paid the "same" is going home at 5 every night. :no :thinking

Exactly.

I think the pay is not anywhere near level for military and civilian. However, being in the civilian world isn't always sunshine and rainbows either. The corporate world is getting worse and worse about what they are allowed to do to an employee. Tons of people are salaried employees who work 16-20 hour days for weeks or months on end to get projects in on time. A lot of companies pride themselves on having employees that put their jobs before their families. It's getting to be a bit ridiculous.

At least in the military world, when you are pulling in all these crap hours and crazy demands of deployment and being away from family you can say it is for your country and it is your duty. Its a lot harder to justify to your family that you can't be there Christmas Eve because the boss needs to make an extra dollar.

It just sucks all the way around that people can't get paid what they are worth. :tears

I think the pay is not anywhere near level for military and civilian. However, being in the civilian world isn't always sunshine and rainbows either. The corporate world is getting worse and worse about what they are allowed to do to an employee. Tons of people are salaried employees who work 16-20 hour days for weeks or months on end to get projects in on time. A lot of companies pride themselves on having employees that put their jobs before their families. It's getting to be a bit ridiculous.

At least in the military world, when you are pulling in all these crap hours and crazy demands of deployment and being away from family you can say it is for your country and it is your duty. Its a lot harder to justify to your family that you can't be there Christmas Eve because the boss needs to make an extra dollar.

It just sucks all the way around that people can't get paid what they are worth. :tears

I do agree with this. Although civis do get paid more, and there's no doubt about that (IMO), I know it isn't always greener on the other side. Like Trey said though, once you factor in duty nights which fall about once or twice a week (sometimes more) plus deployments plus underways and such, the pay does not even come CLOSE, at all. I think either one can be bad, but I do think the civi side of things does tend to pay better, even after factoring in all of the "perks" of the military.

I think the pay is not anywhere near level for military and civilian. However, being in the civilian world isn't always sunshine and rainbows either. The corporate world is getting worse and worse about what they are allowed to do to an employee. Tons of people are salaried employees who work 16-20 hour days for weeks or months on end to get projects in on time. A lot of companies pride themselves on having employees that put their jobs before their families. It's getting to be a bit ridiculous.

At least in the military world, when you are pulling in all these crap hours and crazy demands of deployment and being away from family you can say it is for your country and it is your duty. Its a lot harder to justify to your family that you can't be there Christmas Eve because the boss needs to make an extra dollar.

It just sucks all the way around that people can't get paid what they are worth. :tears


While I agree that it's tough on both sides, the civilian world also gets paid overtime and most of the time are paid for the time they work. The military doesn't get that. You can figure it out and do the averaging and dividing and all and it can come out to anywhere from .50cents an hour to 3.00 an hour for what they do... that doesn't even COMPARE to minimum wage, let alone civilian pay!

While I agree that it's tough on both sides, the civilian world also gets paid overtime and most of the time are paid for the time they work. The military doesn't get that. You can figure it out and do the averaging and dividing and all and it can come out to anywhere from .50cents an hour to 3.00 an hour for what they do... that doesn't even COMPARE to minimum wage, let alone civilian pay!

One of the jobs that Jas has been seriously considering starts at around 62K but they offer overtime plus they offer a small bonus plus a fairly large bonus yearly which puts the pay at around 87K with overtime, bonuses and the like. He does not even come CLOSE to that right now with EVERYTHING included :rofl Granted, the hours are long (they say they're about 14 hours a day to start with, then gradually get closer to 10 hours) but he would be getting paid extra for it and no LONG separations. And this is with a company in the houston area, which is where we desperately want to settle and can buy a 5 bedroom home 15 miles from his work, in a NICE residential area for $180K. I used to try to talk him into staying in because I was concerned about keeping healthcare and getting a retirement check but he's getting more and more miserable by the day and I'm having a hard time finding reasons for him to stay in any longer. He's done his time... a lot of time... and the military has been good to us. We've been able to raise three children and I've been able to stay at home with them. But there comes a point where you can't help but see how much better you could be doing and feel kind of sad about it sometimes :nutts

Yeah, I should have made it more clear in my previous post but I agree that civilians get paid a heck of a lot more. There are pros and cons on both sides of the fence, but the civilian world tends to win on the money debate.

I think my last post was quickly running :offtopic

My bad. :giggle

My deployed friend averaged out his hourly wage and he makes $2.54 an hour...and he has three kids. LAME.
My husband is an Army n00b, and making way less than he did in the civilian world, but he's doing something he believes in, so it's worth it to us.

I wish congress would get off their asses and LOOK at what these people are doing and pay them what they're f#@$**# worth!!

I read that in the paper here a few days ago. I personally think its a load of shit. I can't believe they think there is no pay gap between the military and civilians. WHATEVER! :rolleyes

Its not even anywhere near the same for some people. between Jason's degree, experience, security clearance, certifications, schooling and everything else, the STARTING pay for jobs that he is fully qualified for is about 20K more per year and I don't mean 20K more per year before we add in things like BAH. I mean 20K more AFTER you add in ALL allowances. I'm sure that the same isn't true for everyone, depending on schooling and such, but I know that the vast majority of people would be making more out of the military. When I calculate Jason's pay, I don't calculate just basic pay... I don't know why anyone would do that. I calculate ALL of his pay- BAH, BAS, any allowances we receive, PLUS I factor in a couple hundred extra per month that would go towards insurance copays and premiums. All of that is part of the package, IMO. So, when we do job searches, we do not and will not even look at a job that pays less than what he makes TOTAL right now in the military.

I agree. We have figured out a number that is equal to his pay, BAH, healthcare, dental, etc. that we need to make on the outside world to break even...

The military is great if you are fresh out of school and don't have any skills. You can't beat getting paid to learn a trade. But for someone who is higher up, the pay doesn't match the civilan sector, IMO. The jobs my hubby is looking at are 2x what he makes now, including BAH and other benefits, and that is for a few years experience, no degree. With his degree and 10 years experience, we imagine it to be almost tripled.

One of the jobs that Jas has been seriously considering starts at around 62K but they offer overtime plus they offer a small bonus plus a fairly large bonus yearly which puts the pay at around 87K with overtime, bonuses and the like. He does not even come CLOSE to that right now with EVERYTHING included :rofl Granted, the hours are long (they say they're about 14 hours a day to start with, then gradually get closer to 10 hours) but he would be getting paid extra for it and no LONG separations. And this is with a company in the houston area, which is where we desperately want to settle and can buy a 5 bedroom home 15 miles from his work, in a NICE residential area for $180K. I used to try to talk him into staying in because I was concerned about keeping healthcare and getting a retirement check but he's getting more and more miserable by the day and I'm having a hard time finding reasons for him to stay in any longer. He's done his time... a lot of time... and the military has been good to us. We've been able to raise three children and I've been able to stay at home with them. But there comes a point where you can't help but see how much better you could be doing and feel kind of sad about it sometimes :nutts

There are 3 reasons why James got out of the military -

1. He did not want to be seperated from us any longer due to deployments, work-ups, etc...

2. He way not happy being in the military anymore

3. He knew he could make alot more money as a civilian


If Jason wants out of the military, I say kudos to him. Its a very hard decision to make, and even harder to follow through on. I think you guys would be happy as civi's. :D

I agree. We have figured out a number that is equal to his pay, BAH, healthcare, dental, etc. that we need to make on the outside world to break even...

The military is great if you are fresh out of school and don't have any skills. You can't beat getting paid to learn a trade. But for someone who is higher up, the pay doesn't match the civilan sector, IMO. The jobs my hubby is looking at are 2x what he makes now, including BAH and other benefits, and that is for a few years experience, no degree. With his degree and 10 years experience, we imagine it to be almost tripled.

I TOTALLY agree with you on that. A lot of people who enlist have no degree, no experience, sometimes even no place to live or family or anything. I agree that it's rarely that you'll find an opportunity like the military, where you'll be able to start at a decent salary with housing, get a steady paycheck, get trained, gain the kind of experiences with leadership and travel, etc. It's once you get higher up with more years in that you really start noticing the drastic difference. With the experience you've gained and schooling and degree or what not, by the time you're an E6 or E7 with 10 years in, the pay even with benefits, just does not match most civi jobs.

Don't get me wrong, we're both VERY thankful for what the military has given us and we couldn't have made it without the military. The Navy is what gave him the opportunity to attend college, go to several schools that taught him very valuable knowledge, the experience with leadership and instructing, amongst other things. But now that he's got so much under his belt, it's a hard pill to swallow knowing that he'll be deploying constantly and being taken from us so much, when he won't even be making a third of what he's "worth".

I don't know if he'll stay in or get out, but after being up here and seeing some of the things going on with the "New Navy", I can tell you that he does feel differently about the Navy than he did when we came up here. Things may change when he gets back to sea, I don't really know. But for right now, he's definitely exploring the possibilities and talking with people who can help him should he decide to get out.

Since DH is a nuke, he is making NO WHERE NEAR what he can make in the civilian world.

Since DH is a nuke, he is making NO WHERE NEAR what he can make in the civilian world.

yep

There is a huge pay gap between military and civilian jobs. With my husband's job, which is one of the most needed positions, we make about $25,000 a year or around there. He's currently working on his degree in the same field. If he got out now, he could get a civilian job in DC with a starting pay of $70,000. That's a HUGE increase. But he will stay in the AF for the full 20 years to retire and then go civilian.

i suppose, then, the question everyone should ask themselves is... if the $$ is so good out of the Navy... what is keeping you (or your so) from getting out and landing that job? Is it the community? Is it the comraderie? The adventure? The security of insurance and housing?

I'm just curious because we're out...and J makes good money... but we both miss the military for reasons mentioned above. We pay over $300/month in our premium for health insurance... we rent a house (and rent comes out of his salary, as well as utils), when I had to have surgery, we paid a chunk of it out of pocket, instead of going to balboa and not paying anything additional...etc etc... fortunately, we still have our friends and j has a plethera of guys he works with (as a gov't contractor) who are in, so he gets to be a part of the "community..." but anyway... I'm rambling from my original thought... So many women are "afraid" of when their SO is to get out... however, the question remains -- if the $$ is so much better, why the worry? Why not jump on the $$ and what not? :D

I'm just curious because we've been on both sides, and I see all points of view on this topic.

i suppose, then, the question everyone should ask themselves is... if the $$ is so good out of the Navy... what is keeping you (or your so) from getting out and landing that job? Is it the community? Is it the comraderie? The adventure? The security of insurance and housing?

Well we're AF, but the pay difference is $45,000. If he got out, we'd be much better off. We chose to stay because it's a very respectable job being part of the military. There aren't many other careers where you feel that you're part of something so much larger that can make such a difference. It's pride in what he does. The pay is crap, but money isn't everything. We also like that we can travel and live in so many places.

i suppose, then, the question everyone should ask themselves is... if the $$ is so good out of the Navy... what is keeping you (or your so) from getting out and landing that job? Is it the community? Is it the comraderie? The adventure? The security of insurance and housing?

I'm just curious because we're out...and J makes good money... but we both miss the military for reasons mentioned above. We pay over $300/month in our premium for health insurance... we rent a house (and rent comes out of his salary, as well as utils), when I had to have surgery, we paid a chunk of it out of pocket, instead of going to balboa and not paying anything additional...etc etc... fortunately, we still have our friends and j has a plethera of guys he works with (as a gov't contractor) who are in, so he gets to be a part of the "community..." but anyway... I'm rambling from my original thought... So many women are "afraid" of when their SO is to get out... however, the question remains -- if the $$ is so much better, why the worry? Why not jump on the $$ and what not? :D

I'm just curious because we've been on both sides, and I see all points of view on this topic.


GOOD questions Becky!

i suppose, then, the question everyone should ask themselves is... if the $$ is so good out of the Navy... what is keeping you (or your so) from getting out and landing that job? Is it the community? Is it the comraderie? The adventure? The security of insurance and housing?

I'm just curious because we're out...and J makes good money... but we both miss the military for reasons mentioned above. We pay over $300/month in our premium for health insurance... we rent a house (and rent comes out of his salary, as well as utils), when I had to have surgery, we paid a chunk of it out of pocket, instead of going to balboa and not paying anything additional...etc etc... fortunately, we still have our friends and j has a plethera of guys he works with (as a gov't contractor) who are in, so he gets to be a part of the "community..." but anyway... I'm rambling from my original thought... So many women are "afraid" of when their SO is to get out... however, the question remains -- if the $$ is so much better, why the worry? Why not jump on the $$ and what not? :D

I'm just curious because we've been on both sides, and I see all points of view on this topic.


Because Jason didn't have his degree last time he was up for enlistment, we had an enormous amount of debt, we had a new baby, we didn't plan properly and didn't want to be stuck in a bad position where he could be a month or two without salary... we just could not afford to do it then. Now, he's still got another 2 years of this enlistment, which puts him at 12 years. That's a lot to "throw away", regardless of the money he'd make in the outside world. Our decision is mostly swayed by the fact that he has been in so long. Its hard to walk away from that knowing that he can retire and have benefits plus a paycheck for life if he does the additional 8 years. That's our reasoning.

and those are good reasons :)

it's just interesting to hear it from both sides, as we've been on both sides ourselves.

based on my limited knowledge, i agree that there is a pay gap...

Here's another example: the starting salary for an attorney coming straight out of law school and going to a corporate law firm in a major market is $160k (without bonuses). When I went to my JAG interviews they were bragging about how great the money is but when I asked how much the first year JAGs were actually making, it was substantially less than I had made as a civilian paralegal before going to grad school.

Maybe with some military jobs but there are jobs in the military that I KNOW aren't equivalent to the civilian sector even if you count in all the allowances.

I'm pretty sure I added it all up one year and Jason was still making only about 25k a year (counting BAS, BAH, COLA). When starting salaries for a job like his can be twice that or more.

This is why we are considering getting out but not at the same time.....Jer's job qualifies him for almost DOUBLE what he makes in the military, INCLUDING BAH etc.....it's ridiculous. We're just so close to retirement at the end of this enlistment that it would be kind of silly to get out instead of waiting a few years to get that retired pay.

Oh so they say that due to all the allowances, it's not comparable? Well then it's also not comparable because most private sector jobs are based on 40-50 hours weeks, not 14 hour days, or being gone for weeks or months at a time while the person in the civi side who gets paid the "same" is going home at 5 every night. :no :thinking

My husband will leave for work at 3am sometimes and he doesnt get home until after 6..Plus he works weekends too...

There are 3 reasons why James got out of the military -

1. He did not want to be seperated from us any longer due to deployments, work-ups, etc...

2. He way not happy being in the military anymore

3. He knew he could make alot more money as a civilian


If Jason wants out of the military, I say kudos to him. Its a very hard decision to make, and even harder to follow through on. I think you guys would be happy as civi's. :D


Change that and put my DH's name there for the reasons..

My husband has two degrees and he works his butt off, even being a Nuke, he does the same exact thing he did when he was in.

Bex asked good questions...None of those were worth what has happened to the military according to DH...Sit in my office for an hr and then ask where the respect of the old times has gone.

My husband will leave for work at 3am sometimes and he doesnt get home until after 6..Plus he works weekends too...

Yes, and your husband is getting paid triple what a military member does. So a military member works the same hours as your husband, but your hubby is getting paid triple what they get.

Yes, and your husband is getting paid triple what a military member does. So a military member works the same hours as your husband, but your hubby is getting paid triple what they get.


She proved your point for you I do believe.

Yes, and your husband is getting paid triple what a military member does. So a military member works the same hours as your husband, but your hubby is getting paid triple what they get.

And he also has two 4 yr degrees. Where he was last stationed really made him see what the other side could be, and he chose to do it. And Im happy that he did, because he is so much happier than he was when he was in. He saw all the things that everyone could do...His swing superviser breeds and shows champion dogs. I guess he saw the chance to make it better as a civi. I didnt have close friends on the base so I dont really miss the "community"