Taking the possible legal ramifications for the abortion debate out of the equation, do you think that an unborn child, lost in the course of an assault or homicide, should be counted as a homicide? Why or why not? Is there a certain stage in the gestation where your answer would change?

Yes. It's a life.....

Tough one. If it is an obvious pregnant woman, especially one killed by a husband or boyfriend, then yes. Random act of violence, I would say no. My opinion is that they would have to try to prove he was killing the woman and hoping the fetus would die as well.

A life is a life.

Well, homicide is simply taking away the life of another. If we're talking about a fetus, and the mother is killed along with it, I think it would depend on if the fetus had died due to the assault or died because the mother had died and it couldn't survive. If it's a direct response to the assualt, then I believe it should be counted as a homicide. If not, I don't think the fetus should be considered a homicide, but the mother should be.

If there was malice aforethought present to harm the fetus and the mother is not killed, then I think yes it should be counted as a homicide.

Well not only was 1 life destroyed but 2!!

Yes. It's a life.....

i agree.

Well, homicide is simply taking away the life of another. If we're talking about a fetus, and the mother is killed along with it, I think it would depend on if the fetus had died due to the assault or died because the mother had died and it couldn't survive. If it's a direct response to the assualt, then I believe it should be counted as a homicide. If not, I don't think the fetus should be considered a homicide, but the mother should be.

If there was malice aforethought present to harm the fetus and the mother is not killed, then I think yes it should be counted as a homicide.

:agree

Depends on if the person doing the assulting knew the woman was pregnant. If she was obviously pregnant then yes. If she was not obviously pregnant and the assult was not done by a husband or so then you cant prove they knew a fetus was involved.

Depends on if the person doing the assulting knew the woman was pregnant. If she was obviously pregnant then yes. If she was not obviously pregnant and the assult was not done by a husband or so then you cant prove they knew a fetus was involved.
I seriously considered this point, and lawfully, I think that your point is correct, but then my heart tells me that if someone is beating a woman hard enough to kill her unborn child they should get what's coming to 'em.. but by our justice system, I agree.

I think if both mother and child die they should be charged with double homicide....

I see it like this...if a gang member does a drive by on a house and says that he only meant to kill that rival gang member and not the other 3 people he shot in the home then he shouldn't get charge because he didn't know? Bullshit. Double homicide in my eyes...point blank.

I think if both mother and child die they should be charged with double homicide....

I see it like this...if a gang member does a drive by on a house and says that he only meant to kill that rival gang member and not the other 3 people he shot in the home then he shouldn't get charge because he didn't know? Bullshit. Double homicide in my eyes...point blank.

But you have to consider how and why the fetus died and if the person knew the woman was pregnant. In a court, that is what matters.

But you have to consider how and why the fetus died and if the person knew the woman was pregnant. In a court, that is what matters.

I just don't agree...maybe its me but that seems like the good old excuse of "well i didn't know" Well....they had no buisness killing of hurting someone in the first place. When I use to say I didn't know to get out of things...I was always followed with "Now you do...suffer the consequences"

I can't sleep ladies so I will be up alllllllllll night. :twisted:P

I just don't agree...maybe its me but that seems like the good old excuse of "well i didn't know" Well....they had no buisness killing of hurting someone in the first place. When I use to say I didn't know to get out of things...I was always followed with "Now you do...suffer the consequences"

I can't sleep ladies so I will be up alllllllllll night. :twisted:P

I understand, it's what you believe. I was just looking at it from the court's and the law's perspective.

I understand, it's what you believe. I was just looking at it from the court's and the law's perspective.

sometimes the law sucks...

sidenote: your db glasses are cacute!!!!! I love those things!

sometimes the law sucks...

sidenote: your db glasses are cacute!!!!! I love those things!

Haha thanks. He bought them before he deployed. He had his old ones for so long; chipped and scratched. It was time for a new pair. I think he's a cutie :wink

this is a really interesting question that appeals to the law student in me :)

since intent is an element of homicide, i suspect that one would have to know that the woman was pregnant to be guilty.

i think the standard of knowing that the woman was pregnant is more effective than picking a gestational age. for example, if a law stated that any murder of a woman >20wks pregnant would be considered a double homicide would let a boyfriend who murdered a wife he knew to be 10wks pregnant off the hook. that result doesn't make much sense to me. if you hold the defendant to a knowledge standard, the boyfriend in the above example would be charged with both murders.

Taking the possible legal ramifications for the abortion debate out of the equation, do you think that an unborn child, lost in the course of an assault or homicide, should be counted as a homicide? Why or why not? Is there a certain stage in the gestation where your answer would change?

If I'm not mistaken, an unborn child is NOT counted by the census bureau as a member of the census, therefore does not exist. A person shouldn't, by way of that reason, be charged with murder of a person that doesn't exist.

this is a really interesting question that appeals to the law student in me :)

since intent is an element of homicide, i suspect that one would have to know that the woman was pregnant to be guilty.

i think the standard of knowing that the woman was pregnant is more effective than picking a gestational age. for example, if a law stated that any murder of a woman >20wks pregnant would be considered a double homicide would let a boyfriend who murdered a wife he knew to be 10wks pregnant off the hook. that result doesn't make much sense to me. if you hold the defendant to a knowledge standard, the boyfriend in the above example would be charged with both murders.

GOOD POINT! You sound very professional! :tu

this is a really interesting question that appeals to the law student in me :)

since intent is an element of homicide, i suspect that one would have to know that the woman was pregnant to be guilty.

Well technically, homicide does not require intent. Criminal homicide does, but they would have to be tried and convicted of it. But what if the woman and the fetus were killed? Then wouldn't it matter how the fetus died in order to prove exactly if it were fetal homicide?

Well technically, homicide does not require intent. Criminal homicide does, but they would have to be tried and convicted of it. But what if the woman and the fetus were killed? Then wouldn't it matter how the fetus died in order to prove exactly if it were fetal homicide?

sorry sage, i should have been more clear. when i say homicide i presume criminal homicide (in TX "criminal homicide" is the only thing in the penal code, there is no such thing as plain "homicide"). but someone could be on the hook for a lesser form of criminal homicide without intent. if they were simply reckless or negligent they could still be guilty depending on the particular states definition of criminal homicide. the texas penal code defines criminal homicide as follows:

"A person commits criminal homicide if he intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence causes the death of an individual."

so as long as the death of the fetus was related to the mother's injuries, it seems that it would count as a homicide. if the fetus was already dead for another reason, that wouldn't be homicide.

i'm just using tx as an example because that's the penal code i'm familiar with.

here's something about Texas's prenatal protection act

Under a law signed June 20, 2003, and effective September 1, 2003, the protections of the entire criminal code extend to "an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth." The law does not apply to "conduct committed by the mother of the unborn child" or to "a lawful medical procedure performed by a physican or other licensed health care provider with the requisite consent." (SB 319, Prenatal Protection Act)

A life is a life.

Yes. I don't care whether the person knew she was pregnant or not, if someone is being abusive and violent enough to hurt a mother so sad that it kills the baby, the person deserves to be charged with killing the baby. If the person killed the mother, then that's an obvious yes. If they have intent to kill one person, it's not like knowing they were killing a second person int he process would matter all that much.

So, yes, period.

If I'm not mistaken, an unborn child is NOT counted by the census bureau as a member of the census, therefore does not exist. A person shouldn't, by way of that reason, be charged with murder of a person that doesn't exist.

Wow :no I don't agree with that at all. There isn't any morality in that at all.

So, if someone walks up to Kristi when she's 36 weeks pregnant, knifes her in the gut enough to kill the baby but not kill her, you'd be okay with the person getting off scott free because the baby wasn't actually a real person who "exists" :tired

in my very humble and honest opinion i think once the baby is viable outside the mother it should be counted as murder

I agree with Jill. If the baby is viable outside the mother's womb and dies because of the assault then they should be charged with murder of the fetus. I will even go a step farther and say that when that fetus has a nervous system capable of feeling pain it should be counted as a homicide or at least assault. I also feel that abortions should be illegal after a fetus develops a nervous system capable of feeling pain, but that is another debate... :P

I agree with Jill. If the baby is viable outside the mother's womb and dies because of the assault then they should be charged with murder of the fetus. I will even go a step farther and say that when that fetus has a nervous system capable of feeling pain it should be counted as a homicide or at least assault. I also feel that abortions should be illegal after a fetus develops a nervous system capable of feeling pain, but that is another debate... :P

:agree :yes

i actually think that after 8 weeks it should be considered murder but that's extreme.

I think at the very least there should be a charge of manslaughter for the death of the fetus. But like a few others said if the mother was obviously pregnant, it should be a double homicide charge IMO

once it has a heart beat, then it should be considered a homicide.

I think at the very least there should be a charge of manslaughter for the death of the fetus. But like a few others said if the mother was obviously pregnant, it should be a double homicide charge IMO

it's that way in some states. i think it's 7 or 8 months and if the woman has been murdered and her fetus is killed also then the person charged can be charged doubly

I agree its still a life and the person hould be held responsible for their actons

[QUOTE=sage;1128808]Well, homicide is simply taking away the life of another. If we're talking about a fetus, and the mother is killed along with it, I think it would depend on if the fetus had died due to the assault or died because the mother had died and it couldn't survive... QUOTE]

Good point, I agree with that

I think it's a life and deserves recognition and the murderer deserves punishment for it. I don't care if the murderer didn't know, he killed the mother anyhow and might as well be punished for killing an unborn child.

In recent months there have been so many pregnant women killed and in late stages of the pregnancy... it's so sad. Yes, it should be a double homicide.

Wow :no I don't agree with that at all. There isn't any morality in that at all.

So, if someone walks up to Kristi when she's 36 weeks pregnant, knifes her in the gut enough to kill the baby but not kill her, you'd be okay with the person getting off scott free because the baby wasn't actually a real person who "exists" :tired

Excellent point...

In recent months there have been so many pregnant women killed and in late stages of the pregnancy... it's so sad. Yes, it should be a double homicide.

Its SCARY. Damned scary. I don't know an exact count of how many cases there have been but I know of at least a handful of sicko women who have actually cut the baby out of a woman and tried to take the baby as their own. Like the chick who tracked that one lady down from her baby registry or craigslist or something? And the lady who was selling the puppies also. There are some really sick people in this word.

Yes, it should. It's a living being.

Its SCARY. Damned scary. I don't know an exact count of how many cases there have been but I know of at least a handful of sicko women who have actually cut the baby out of a woman and tried to take the baby as their own. Like the chick who tracked that one lady down from her baby registry or craigslist or something? And the lady who was selling the puppies also. There are some really sick people in this word.

No doubt! I can't imagine how completely heartless someone must be do to something like that.

Ya know, most of these pregnant women get killed by husbands/boyfriends... what the fuck ever happened to divorce or just NOT being together! Geez!! Why is it necessary to KILL them? Just go the fuck away already, LEAVE!!

I think the law varies by state. If we are talking about my FEELINGS then yes it should be homicide no matter what. But we dont live in a society ruled by feelings. We have to go by what the LAW states. And hatetank is probably right in a lot of states if that baby hasnt been born it doesnt exist. Its probably not how he FEELS but its the LAW.

25 States have that law.

State Fetal Homicide Laws (http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html)