http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fatherhood.suit.ap/index.html
Activists seek right to decline financial responsibility for kids

Wednesday, March 8, 2006; Posted: 7:41 p.m. EST (00:41 GMT)


Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.
NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.

'This is so politically incorrect'
Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."

All I have to say is...

1.nothing is 100% when it comes to getting pregnant

2.it takes 2 to tango

3.keep your fucking pants on idiots and this shit wouldn't happen.

All I have to say is...

1.nothing is 100% when it comes to getting pregnant

2.it takes 2 to tango

3.keep your fucking pants on idiots and this shit wouldn't happen.

i agree...my favorite part of the story is men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child. ummm hello, if you don't want to pay child support, don't have sex...all the guys really have to do is try to sign off their parental rights and they would pretty much be free...i think if the guy really didn't want a kid then that would be his best way to go...
take it to court and fight for that....i say the same for women though too..it goes 2 ways..you don't want a kid, don't have SEX....plain and simple

:refuse

:inshock :duh :confused :rolleyes

I don't even have the words to express my thoughts on this.

wear a condom, thats your opt out option

You know..At this rate pretty soon you will need a contract just to have sex :rolleyes

You know..At this rate pretty soon you will need a contract just to have sex :rolleyes
:lmao
Sometimes that wouldnt be such a bad idea. ;)

It seems like his ex was deceptive in my opinion.

why should a woman get to get pregnant and totally ruin a guy's life?? why does she get to opt out but if she decides to have the child then he is stuck too? mistakes happen. just after john and i broke up when we thought i was pregnant, i sent him something in writing saying that should i be pregnant he could have as much or as little to do with it as he wanted and he could sign away his rights and financial responsibility. if a man cannot decide on the abortion, adoption, or keeping of a child, he should get to "opt out" IMO

All I have to say is...

1.nothing is 100% when it comes to getting pregnant

2.it takes 2 to tango

3.keep your fucking pants on idiots and this shit wouldn't happen.



I am not saying you are not right at all. but after reading that article myself I thought about it for a while. I think a man should have a choice in the matter since it is all about equality If the woman has a right to choose to have an abortion, adoption, or even keeping the baby why then can't the man have a choice too? In all fairness it is a legal argument.:thinking

Once again I am the minority on this I think.

I support fully.

Why?

Becuase as women we are given the right to choose. Whether some of you believe in the right to choose or not we are given it. We can choose to raise the child, give it up for adoption or terminate the pregnancy. We have told men for years now they dont have a choice but really why don't they? Whos to say they didn't use a condom. Whos to say the girl said she was on BC and lied? Whos to say it was just a drunken one time fling? We stand here saying the men have no say but really what honestly gives us as women the right to make these men follow through with what WE want for our lives? Some men may not want to be a father just as much as a women may not want to be a mother but what we are saying is just becuase his sperm can help create life that there for they are bound by whatever the women wants. How fair is that.

I think laws do need to be changed regarding men and their options of being a parent. There are men out there who just dont want to be fathers. Im not talking of the ones we see on Maury povich and crap like that. Im talking about the every day stand up guy who goes to work comes home and minds his own business. Why should we as women force this lifestyle on that man jsut because he's not carrying the child. Well it's our right as women to make the choice of whether or not we want the child ourselves. But for a women to just make the choice for the man whether they are together or not is just not right in my opinon.

I dont agree fully with the article but I diffiently agree that the laws need to start being equal oppertunity here. Not just siding with the mother.

I am not saying you are not right at all. but after reading that article myself I thought about it for a while. I think a man should have a choice in the matter since it is all about equality If the woman has a right to choose to have an abortion, adoption, or even keeping the baby why then can't the man have a choice too? In all fairness it is a legal argument.:thinking

I am talking about BOTH the man and the woman. Seriously, my husband and I talked about this BEFORE we were married and just dating the "what-if's". If people are NOT mature enough to even talk about these things than fuck them. I'm sorry. It all chalks up to talking about it beforehand. HE should have been smart enough to think, "Well NOTHING is 100%".
Yes, she was probably lying about her medical condition. I thought that also. Good luck to him on this one. I was taught that BOTH parties are responsible. You should always think of the consequences of your actions before you do something. I made many mistakes when I was younger by not looking before I leaped, but I learned from those mistakes. I also learned from OTHER people's mistakes and did not do what they did because I saw what could happen. I hate to think negatively about situations in life, becasue life should be joyous, but that is how people have to start thinking.
Use your head before your hormones.

I got permission from her to copy and paste this into this forum.
It is too much for us to retype the debate in here, this was just easier! We can debate this, see each other's views and still not want to kill each other :lmao



Michelle: look at your exbest firend situation if she really was preggo
Jenifer: oh, I know
Michelle: wouldnt the guy deserve the chance to get out
Jenifer: but I stand by my desicions
Michelle: lol
Jenifer: if he didn't think about this beforehand, that is his fault
Jenifer: I'm sorry
Michelle: true but then it comes to women have the options
Michelle: and i think thats what gets me
Michelle: ya know if we are allowed the options why cant they
Jenifer: when I got raped and pregnant when I was 17 yrs old and was thinking about keeping the baby
Jenifer: I did not want the father involved
Jenifer: I was dating him when he did that to me
Jenifer: but I did NOT want him around
Michelle: but for the women who make the choice to involve the fathers
Michelle: you had the choice
Jenifer: I am glad things ended up the way they did, but I NEVER would have asked him for support
Michelle: you chose not to involve him
Jenifer: yes
Jenifer: this is something Conor and I also spoke about when we decided to have sex
Jenifer: what if I got pregnant
Jenifer: if he said, well, I wouldn't want that to happen, then we would not have had sex
Jenifer: people are not dumb
Michelle: but not everyone is mature like that i guess
Michelle: we use bc to prevent it
Jenifer: they know that sex can result in pg
Michelle: and we put our faith in it
Jenifer: and nothing is 100%
Jenifer: and so did I
Jenifer: and I am pregnant
Michelle: true
Jenifer: does that mean we get rid of a child, not love them or not live up the end result of failed BC?
Jenifer: no
Michelle: i dont guess i look at it fifferent since ive seen others get trapped into the situation
Jenifer: yes and so have I
Jenifer: I feel for them, I really do
Michelle: they are good men and some wanted kids but the girls had abortions
Michelle: they didnt get a say on that
Michelle: while others didnt and they were forced into the role
Jenifer: but I guess I just feel sex is an adult thing (though I was not yet an adult when I did it)
Jenifer: and it should be handled like adults
Michelle: true but why does the women get the final say
Jenifer: I know
Jenifer: that is also truw
Jenifer: it's an agruement
Michelle: and i think that is what the men are trying to get america to start thinking about
Jenifer: yea
Michelle: when did it become the womens sole right to choose with options
Michelle: leaving the men out in the cold with no say
Jenifer: well maybe they should extert their energy into abstinence before marriage instead of BC ads
Jenifer: let it all out that NO BC is 100%
Michelle: would you have really stayed abstince until marriage
Jenifer: no, but I understood what happened
Jenifer: I was pg before I got married
Michelle: i know i wouldnt have. i would have waited but i didnt get that choice
Jenifer: we were already engaged and I got pg before the wedding
Michelle: i wasnt even married or engaged just dating
Michelle: and i made the choice to keep anya
Michelle: but i didnt make the choice to make daniel pay
Jenifer: then who did?
Michelle: and a part of me doesnt want his money
Michelle: but the state of ca doesnt give either of us a choice on him
Jenifer: well, that is CA state
Michelle: when you apply for medical they automatically start a child support case
Jenifer: it's not the same in all states
Jenifer: yes, they do
Jenifer: those are laws that should be changed
Michelle: yupp
Michelle: which is why i thinkits intresting that the men have started this
Jenifer: that is saying you do not want his money, but you do want your child
Jenifer: not everyone is like you
Michelle: but i dont want his involvement. my choice
Jenifer: some women are money grubbing bitches
Michelle: but if he chooses to involve im okay with that too
Michelle: bridiessong: some women are money grubbing bitches...thats why the law needs to get changed diffently
Michelle: and allow men the options
Jenifer: yes, so you give him the choice and I think that is what men want
Michelle: which is what the article was going for
Michelle: lol
Jenifer: BUT
Jenifer: they also do need to start a campaign to wake people up to this
Michelle: yupp and did you kow teen pregnancy has dropped dramatically ove the last couple of yrs too
Jenifer: really? my highschool increased
Jenifer: well, probably less now
Michelle: national avg has dropped
Jenifer: it's been a while
Michelle: i saw it about 3 months ago on cnn
Jenifer: good, but what about the "adults"
Michelle: yeah they are just stupid
Jenifer: they have all this access to BC and think they are safe
Jenifer: so again, people need to be better informed
Michelle: which then begins the agrument of how we as humans think we are invincible theroy

So, that is pretty much it. :hi

Michelle, again I am in the minority with you! I agree 100% with what you stated!

Another thing to think about though for those of who support it (and I'm not sure if I do or don't support it, this is just an honest question)...

I get what you're saying, Michelle... about what if the condom broke, what if the women lied, etc... BUT...

what if the man is just plain careless or romances a woman into thinking that he DOES want kids, so they have unprotected sex (mutually, knowing that she could get pregnant), then when the time comes to be a man and accept his responsibilities, he won't. What do you do then? What if he CLAIMS she said she was birth control? What if he CLAIMS she maniuplated him or poked a hole in the condom or whatever? Then what happens? He should be able to just get out of child support and supporting his child because he has the right to do so? How could you PROVE that the man really didn't "try" for the baby? Or at least have sex unprotected purposely knowing full well that they could be pregnant?

Too many loop holes, IMO. I think this would end up giving women more problems in the long run. I think there would be a lot of men using this as an escape after they realize the realities of becoming a father when the girl gets knocked up. Then the women is left alone to mother, father and pay for the child all by herself.

I think there are too many women out there who are playing mommy daddy etc by themselves and they put themselves inthe situation as well. I get what you mean by loop holes Brandi I agree there are way to many and what ids but I stiill think that the laws need to be more equal oppertunity. Its always about the women and her rights and never once do we stop anad think about the right of them men.

While sitting in Family court for just a day and over hearing stories being told back and forth or listening to court cases, it looks pretty 50/50 when it comes to deceving, lying etc now days. Its not just the man who lies his way into a bedroom.

But then we come around to the BC topic and although Teen unplanned pregnancies are down and everyone in society looks down on those why is it that there is no repercussion to the grown adults who should know better then to put themselves into this situation.

Like Brandi said too many loop holes and way too many avenues this can go

I am with April if you don't want to have children then you need to protect yourself regardless of the situation. It seems unfair for either party to be stuck raising a child on their own. I just think that some men would use this as a "get out of jail free" card.

When i saw the headline to this debate/news I thought that it was going to say that men wanted to have a decision in an abortion. For instance if the woman wants an abortion, but the man wants to keepthe baby.

I think the men make a good point, but it's not fair to give them the option to opt out in places where women dont have the choice to abort.

When i saw the headline to this debate/news I thought that it was going to say that men wanted to have a decision in an abortion. For instance if the woman wants an abortion, but the man wants to keepthe baby.


me too!

2 lawyers, one from each side, were live on CNN this evening. I just happened to catch the last 5 minutes and the "men's rights" lawyer made himself look really stupid. It's a shame he did that, this could have lead to being an interesting case in court. Now, he's ruined it for me and I think he's an idiot!

I think it is a good deal for men. Also women should wake up and open their eyes that if the woman tricks him into having sex (which alot of them do) and has a baby then the guy shouldn't have to pay for anything . also the sex contract sounds very good....