Iowa courts rule in favor of same sex marriage [Archive] - Military Significant Others and Spouse Support

LittleMsSunshine

08-31-2007, 09:05 PM

I wrote a paper on Gay Marriage for a Sociology course... and I decided to paste it here because it best sums up all my personal views on the matter.... (sorry it's so long... this is about as short as I could make it... lol)

Many politicians gain conservative votes by saying that gay marriage is against the bible. Sure, Christianity may frown upon homosexuality, but the bible is not the law. The heart of the United States of America was created not on one faith alone, but rather on the idea of embracing a plurality of creeds. This is why the founding fathers paved the way for equality by writing the Bill of Rights. The First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."[6]

The separation of church and state. This in mind, there is no reason why the Bible should have any weight in government matters. For a politician, even the president, to cite the bible as their reasoning behind supporting discriminatory legislation is unconstitutional. There is no reason why Christianity should have a monopoly on morality within the legal system. Why should they be able to determine whose love is legal and legitimate? As Bidstrup states,

"The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law, as was made clear by the intent of the First Amendment (and as was very explicitly stated by the founding fathers in their first treaty, the Treaty of Tripoli, in 1791.) And because it doesn't, no one has the right to impose rules on anyone else simply because of something they perceive to be a moral injunction mandated by the Bible."[7]

There is no strong evidence to suggest that legalizing gay marriage will be detrimental to American culture. Religious leaders and followers worry that their churches will be forced to accept the lifestyle and preside over same-sex marriages. This is not the case. The homosexual community is simply asking the government to realize that the country is a democracy, not a theocracy. In turn, it needs to establish laws which will enforce their Constitutional right to equality. A way for same-sex couples to be entitled to the same legal and financial benefits that married straight couples enjoy.

Marriage would allow same-sex couples to exercise the same rights given to heterosexual couples. It would grant them the power to make medical decisions for their spouse, inheritance rights, custody and visitation rights, tax credits and exemptions, equal insurance plans through the workplace and many other legal privileges on all levels of government.

So while the religious and moral views of many citizens may conflict with the idea of gay marriage, it is necessary to consider the duties which come along with being American. It is the responsibility of all to support a government which extends the same civil rights which they enjoy to everyone equally. It is not wrong to disagree with a lifestyle if your religion shuns it, but Americans must not oppose the right of every other American to enjoy the equal application of civil rights under the law. Especially not in a democratic country which claims to so highly regard the separation of church and state.

~~~this is one of the few subjects that I'm absolutely passionate about. Not even because I'm pro-gay or whatever (I could actually care less about a person's orientation)... but because I think it's SO disgusting that we discriminate. Honestly... like I said above... who are we to determine who's love is legitimate? What makes a straight couple ANY better than a gay one?

Nobody's asking you (in general) to accept their lifestyle.... nobody's expecting you to march down Main Street USA with a rainbow banner and a gay pride t-shirt. All these people want is to have access to the same rights as everyone else. What's so wrong and immoral about that? (Not that immorality should even be a factor).

Man... I could talk for DAYS on this subject... but I'll hop off my little soapbox now.... (sorry this was so long)

Green~Mammy

08-31-2007, 09:08 PM

Aurora

08-31-2007, 09:21 PM

As usual, I agree with Trina and Jamie and that is all I'm going to say.

LittleMsSunshine

08-31-2007, 09:27 PM

Yes, I hardly think my kids are going to care who has two Mums or who has two Dads. They are not going to be sleeping in the same room and it's not like the parents are going to be getting it on in the room my kids are hanging out in either. What does that have to do with anything anyway? I mean same sex couple does not = pedophile sexually perverted to me. It just means they have a different sexual relationship then my DH & I.

GLBT people exist my children must learn how to be kind & tolerant of people and peoples differances. They have to live in the real world not a fairy tale one where everyone think, feels, & loves the same. (how boring that would be) For me it is like this some people will not like my children because they are Jewish. My children will have to learn that and how to move past it with out getting bitter. By teaching my children tolerance hopefully they can spread tolerance as they grow.

I totally agree. Personally I think that (generally) kids raised in "alternative lifestyle" households grow up to be MORE openminded, MORE tolerant, and MUCH more empathetic than kids who aren't exposed to it. If anything, I think a lot of them grow up to be actually more better-adjusted than most kids do. In a way I also feel sorry for these kids... because a lot of them are forced to see how ugly this world can be at a really early age.... by people trying to tell them that their mommy's love, or daddy's love is illegitimate because of their sexual preferences. As long as a child is loved, nurtured and provided for, what does it matter if they have "two mommies" or "two daddies"??

I don't have kids yet... but I already know that they're going to be raised to be tolerant and accepting of EVERYONE. I definitely don't plan on sheltering them to the point of narrowmindedness.

wife-n-mommy

08-31-2007, 09:31 PM

People can be accepting and loving toward others without actually accepting what they are doing as something morally right. My parents always taught me that I did not have to accept something someone was doing that I knew to be wrong, but that I should always try to be curtious to them anyway. I was taught to actually befriend people who were "different". You can be friends with people and still not agree with everything they do, or how they live their life. As I said befor, I do have gay and lesbian friends and they know how I feel about their relationships and their life decisions and they are still my friends. I have a friend who killed her grandparents and is in jail...I do not think it is ok to kill...but she is still my friend. I have friends who have been addicted to drugs...I don't think it is ok to do drugs, but they are still my friends. I have several friends who have done things that i do not agree with, but they are still my friends and they know i do not agree with the things they have done.
I did not say that it did and this has nothing to do with why i wouldn't let my child sleep over at their house (same sex couple does not = pedophile sexually perverted to me.) I would not let my child sleep over at their house because children are confused as to what is right/wrong anyway...and if these people were living in a way that is not something i would morally want to instill in my child... why would i even subject my child to having to wonder if this was something right/wrong? it would just add more confusion than necessary... just like i would not send my child to a home where they did drugs, or allowed children to watch R rated movies, or did anything else that I may not want to instill in my child.

Yes, I hardly think my kids are going to care who has two Mums or who has two Dads. They are not going to be sleeping in the same room and it's not like the parents are going to be getting it on in the room my kids are hanging out in either. What does that have to do with anything anyway? I mean same sex couple does not = pedophile sexually perverted to me. It just means they have a different sexual relationship then my DH & I.

GLBT people exist my children must learn how to be kind & tolerant of people and peoples differances. They have to live in the real world not a fairy tale one where everyone think, feels, & loves the same. (how boring that would be) For me it is like this some people will not like my children because they are Jewish. My children will have to learn that and how to move past it with out getting bitter. By teaching my children tolerance hopefully they can spread tolerance as they grow.

Green~Mammy

08-31-2007, 09:40 PM

People can be accepting and loving toward others without actually accepting what they are doing as something morally right. My parents always taught me that I did not have to accept something someone was doing that I knew to be wrong, but that I should always try to be curtious to them anyway. I was taught to actually befriend people who were "different". You can be friends with people and still not agree with everything they do, or how they live their life. As I said befor, I do have gay and lesbian friends and they know how I feel about their relationships and their life decisions and they are still my friends. I have a friend who killed her grandparents and is in jail...I do not think it is ok to kill...but she is still my friend. I have friends who have been addicted to drugs...I don't think it is ok to do drugs, but they are still my friends. I have several friends who have done things that i do not agree with, but they are still my friends and they know i do not agree with the things they have done.
I did not say that it did and this has nothing to do with why i wouldn't let my child sleep over at their house (same sex couple does not = pedophile sexually perverted to me.) I would not let my child sleep over at their house because children are confused as to what is right/wrong anyway...and if these people were living in a way that is not something i would morally want to instill in my child... why would i even subject my child to having to wonder if this was something right/wrong? it would just add more confusion than necessary... just like i would not send my child to a home where they did drugs, or allowed children to watch R rated movies, or did anything else that I may not want to instill in my child.

You can not instill gay, you can't catch it. I don't think it is comparable to drug use or R rated movies either. Gay is not a learned behavior.

I would explain or answer if any questions were asked. I teach my children values, & what our religion says is right. I can lead them to the water but they must choose to drink or not. They are free to carve out their own path as they grow.

I think if they have a best friend that has two Mommies (or Daddies) & I do not allow them to hang after school that would cause more confusion. It might lead my child to believe I was judging that family. It might lead to my child feeling it is OK to say hurtful things to that child at school.

wife-n-mommy

08-31-2007, 10:01 PM

wyochick

08-31-2007, 10:07 PM

wife-n-mommy

08-31-2007, 10:21 PM

Just thought I'd get my friend Daniel to comment on this. He is gay and has a "life-partnet" This is what he has to say... "Being homosexual is a choice. I have many friends that also think the way I do, but have taken medication to prevent such thoughts, or just live with the thoughts and do not act on them. Having thoughts in your mind, yes you are born with that, but acting on the thoughts is your decision. Also, many homosexuals did not always have these thoughts and have since become acustomed to the idea of being with another or the same sex due to being hurt by the opposite sex and sofourth"... this is again an exact quote from someone who is gay and just so happens to be my friend. I was talking to him on the phone while checking the update on this post. He said "debates regarding this subject between people that do not even begin to understand what they are debating about are stupid and not even worth commenting on" He allowed me to use his quotes to prove a point but told me to make sure and let everyone know that he would never have even clicked on this debate

Green~Mammy

08-31-2007, 10:30 PM

ChewiesBaby

08-31-2007, 10:36 PM

personal reasons that i've stated against same sex marriage before. i don't mind same sex couples raising families or having the same benefits at all but i don't like the idea of it being called marriage. jmo

I think this comes from marriage being Biblical. Many would not object to a legal contract of a different name, say Civil Union. To some calling it marriage is against what they believe and have been taught is Biblically correct. I don't think so many would object if it were called by another name, honestly. I think it's the tradition of the word and the church ties attached to it that is the stickler and not so much the objection to the act of united two people of the same sex in a legal contract.

ETA: what is the true origin of the word marriage. I would google but I'm about to head to bed. I'll check tomorrow!

Green~Mammy

08-31-2007, 10:52 PM

The Scientific root word for marriage is -gam- and it comes from monogamy, bigamy, and polygamy.
http://sps.k12.ar.us/massengale/prefixes%20and%20suffixes.pdf

A Brief History of Marriage

The institution of marriage has had a long and sordid history. Not always referred to as marriage, which is a word from the 14th century French (marier) to marry, this sacred state had slipped through history under many guises and forms.

Monogamy – describes a union of male and female or (today) same sex couples, so long as the partners are only sleeping with each other. Until only recently in the long history of humankind, marriages were arranged according to lineage and economics. Kingdoms united through members of each royal family. Countries aligned with arranged partnerships. Bloodlines blended throughout history, in the belief that it made them more royal or enduring. Arranged marriages in tight royal bloodlines, often came about because of the sometimes humiliating and always detrimental outcome of too much inbreeding in a family line. Try as they might, attempting to keep the blood pure was not conducive to strong rule.

Polygamy – is the practice of one man or woman with several spouses of the opposite sex. Often, the need for this type of arrangement came from times of war, plague or other disaster. Women left with children and no husband to provide for them were taken as second wives to a brother-in-law or other adequate provider. The idea of multiple spouses as a show of love was virtually unheard of.

Polyamory – is a multiple-partnered marriage whereby the partners get together out of love. Polyamory was sometimes practiced in the Polynesian Islands prior to missionaries and their stodgy ideas of Christian marriage. In these areas, the expression of sex and desire was a gift given by the gods to ensure a strong race. Just as much of the parenting was done in a communal type atmosphere with many mothers and many fathers, so too, were the relations that developed among members of the village. Partnering with one person was entirely foreign to this area, as with many areas of the world.

Common-Law – is the relationship of a couple without legal ceremony or license.

For most of mankind’s “civilized” history, a woman was considered a possession of first her father and then her lawful husband. She had little voice in where they lived, what her husband did and her own duties. She (post-Christianity) must devote herself to her husband, family and faith. Aside from that, her time was her own.

There were exceptions. Many countries, prior to Christianity or missionary outreach, believed the women to be the spiritual advisors, warriors on equal footing and often times judge and jury. Women’s councils were commonplace, for everything from healing and midwifery to dream interpretation for the community.

The ancient world had practices that set women up as trophies of war, competition and feats of strength or bravery. Like a gold statue, a chariot, a horse, farmland or other prize, officers and victors were awarded wives into the bargain. Armies would often return home with women as booty from a raid or battle won. These women were either enslaved or married off to the soldier who brought her home.

Monogamous marriages rose to their peak during the Victorian period in British history. The Puritans moved marriage to a point where love counted and delighting in the state of marriage became commonplace, yet extremely committed. The Victorian period dragged marriage into the closet. Sex was something embarrassing and improper with a quiet understanding that married couples engaged in marital relations, without pleasure and as duty and God dictated.

Until as recently as twenty years ago, in some areas of North America women still needed a husband’s signature to obtain a credit card or mortgage. As in ancient Rome, women went shopping in the marketplace, but they carried no money. They had a manservant to carry it for them. Things have certainly changed. You don’t see many manservants in the local supermarket.

Taken from: http://www.sexscrolls.net/marriage.html Marriage predates Christianity. The word was not even used until the 14th century.

Also:
Conjugal relates to marriage and is based on the Latin word conjugare "to join together in marriage," which in turn came from jugare "to yoke" - and sometimes being married feels like being yoked! The Indo-European root of this Latin word also gave us the words yoke and yoga ("union with the universal spirit") as well as join and junction. We most often heard the word used in reference to a spouse visiting a prison or jail and their conjugal visits or the legal sense of conjugal rights which is the statute saying that each partner in a marriage has rights, including the right to having sexual relations with each other
Taken from:http://dictionary.reference.com/features/wordtraveler04.html

Kiser'sBabe

08-31-2007, 11:00 PM

I am still completly against this.

Wicked

08-31-2007, 11:32 PM

I am so not going to argue this one... people against what is right always will dispute anything that is good. I'll just say this... do you think that a child raised in a same sex relationship would come out into the world with the same outlook on life as one raised in a normal home, with a mother and father? Would you let your child sleep over at the home of a friend whose parents were 2 dads or 2 moms?

What you said here is HIGHLY offensive to me...

First of all, if discriminating against people is "right" and "good", then I must be bad and PROUD OF IT. I would NEVER use my personal beliefs to tell someone that they are a second class citizen and are not allowed to even enter into a legal contract because *I* don't like who they sleep with. Just like I would NEVER tell someone that they are not allowed to worship whatever God they want even if *I* think that their beliefs are closed minded and just plain MEAN. I am atheist. Personally, I don't believe in a deity because I think it is fairy tale like fantasy and quite frankly silly, but I would NEVER push for religion to be illegal because I understand that in this country, people are free to live their lives however they want. I guess that is the difference between you and me.

I will agree with you about one thing... kids that are raised in homosexual households probably won't end up with the same outlook of life as kids raised in "normal" households (although I think using the word normal for heterosexual households as if homosexual ones are somehow defective is very distasteful). Studies show time and time again that children raised in home with same sex parents actually grow up to be more loving, tolerant, forgiving, and compassionate towards people unlike themselves. The kind of stuff Jesus taught. I don't know how that can be construed as a BAD thing, but have at it. I would never refuse to let my kids stay the night with their friend based on their parents sexual orientation alone. NEVER. I will teach my kids compassion, tolerance, open mindedness, and how to respect people even if they are different.

Oh, and BTW, straight couples have the EXACT SAME number of gay kids as gay parents do. The ratio of gay kids to straight kids is EXACTLY THE SAME on both sides of the coin and always has been.

I disagree entirely...I do not agree that someone is "born gay" and I do not agree with any medical research that shows that they are. This is just a way to try to get society to accept that people are not taught this behavior. I do agree that someone may have a chemical un-ballencement that may cause such "gay thoughts" but this is something that is correctable. Just like people who have such chemicals that are not ballenced correctly and make them bipolar, suicidal...etc. If someone were to say "that serial killer killed because that is how they were born...they were born thinking killing is a natural behavior", would we say..."well, ok...if they were born that way...if their brain is configured to think you should kill, then it's ok for them" NO!! Just as you can't say "well, that boy was born thinking he should be with another boy...so let's let him do it, since he was born that way" I think a lot of things are being blamed on being "born that way" and it isn't an excuse.
And as for it making my child think it was "OK for them to say hurtful things to that person" I would also instill in my child that whether you like what someone is doing or not...we do not say hurtful things to them. You still may be friends with them and talk to them...and maybe once the child is old enough to understand right from wrong, yes they may be able to "hang with them after school"

I'm glad you would teach your kids not to be outwardly hurtful to people. I will say that right off the bat. :tu

I am going to also say that comparing gay people to serial killers is not only illogical, it is offensive. Gay people don't go around ending the lives of other people. They just want the same legal rights that straight people get. They just want to be happy. NOT the same thing.

And BTW, being born with a chemical imbalance IS being born gay. LMAO. You can try to reason it away with possible treatments (which don't exist), but being born with a certain balance of chemicals in your brain that make you homosexual IS being born that way. Although, it is not chemical imbalances that science is finding to prove that gay is genetic, it is things like brain size and make-up. But you don't believe in "science" so I guess that doesn't matter right? Even if the same "science" created things like vaccines for kids, treatment and cures for formerly fatal diseases, antibiotics, organ transplants, fertility treatment, armor for our military members, etc... I guess science has it right EXCEPT for the things that you don't "believe in"? Technically, gender is a chemical imbalance, which is why there are TWO and not just one.

~~~this is one of the few subjects that I'm absolutely passionate about. Not even because I'm pro-gay or whatever (I could actually care less about a person's orientation)... but because I think it's SO disgusting that we discriminate. Honestly... like I said above... who are we to determine who's love is legitimate? What makes a straight couple ANY better than a gay one?

Nobody's asking you (in general) to accept their lifestyle.... nobody's expecting you to march down Main Street USA with a rainbow banner and a gay pride t-shirt. All these people want is to have access to the same rights as everyone else. What's so wrong and immoral about that? (Not that immorality should even be a factor).

THANK YOU. I don't get what is so hard to understand about... "If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT." Why the constant need to stop everyone from doing what certain people find "immoral" or unacceptable, even if nothing they are doing actually hurts the people who are so against it? I think that based on the history of civilization, religion has done TONS of harm to human beings. I could list religious wars that have happened and are STILL happening that have caused the DEATHS of MILLIONS of people. But religion is wonderful while having sex with the wrong person, which results in the death of... Oh, NOBODY... is what's evil? Yeah, okay...

People can be accepting and loving toward others without actually accepting what they are doing as something morally right.

Okay, then accept and love gay people and let them have their LEGAL RIGHTS, and if you see it as such an immoral thing, then choose not to do it yourself. Why stop other people from living how THEY feel is morally right for THEM? Are the churches who are so against gays marrying going to be the ones who have to actually marry those people? Oh that's right... NO. Is a gay person getting married going to somehow stop straight people from being able to marry? Again, NO. I don't see gay people trying to take marriage away from straight people, even though straight people have done a whole lot to screw it up without the help of any gays. The divorce and infidelity rates are sky high without any help from gay people at all.

Just thought I'd get my friend Daniel to comment on this. He is gay and has a "life-partnet" This is what he has to say... "Being homosexual is a choice. I have many friends that also think the way I do, but have taken medication to prevent such thoughts, or just live with the thoughts and do not act on them. Having thoughts in your mind, yes you are born with that, but acting on the thoughts is your decision. Also, many homosexuals did not always have these thoughts and have since become acustomed to the idea of being with another or the same sex due to being hurt by the opposite sex and sofourth"... this is again an exact quote from someone who is gay and just so happens to be my friend. I was talking to him on the phone while checking the update on this post. He said "debates regarding this subject between people that do not even begin to understand what they are debating about are stupid and not even worth commenting on" He allowed me to use his quotes to prove a point but told me to make sure and let everyone know that he would never have even clicked on this debate

Funny, my cousin and many of my friends are gay and they have known from a very young age that they didn't choose it anymore than a straight person chooses to be straight. Hmmm, I wonder why that is. Maybe cuz everyone is different??

I think this comes from marriage being Biblical. Many would not object to a legal contract of a different name, say Civil Union. To some calling it marriage is against what they believe and have been taught is Biblically correct. I don't think so many would object if it were called by another name, honestly. I think it's the tradition of the word and the church ties attached to it that is the stickler and not so much the objection to the act of united two people of the same sex in a legal contract.

ETA: what is the true origin of the word marriage. I would google but I'm about to head to bed. I'll check tomorrow!

Who gave religion ownership of the word marriage? I have looked this up many times in the past for debates just like this... The Catholic church didn't even recognize marriage for the first 1000 years of it's existence, and the word marriage wasn't even used for the first time until around 1250 AD. So why do straight people, and not just straight people but religious straight people, get the word but no one else does? When corporations merge, it is called a marriage. Marriage is used in nautical context all the time referring to the marriage of ropes when they are tied together. Artists used the word marriage when talking about the colors they mix together for paintings. So, everyone but GAY PEOPLE can have the word? Marriage itself as a social union pre-dates Christianity. Ancient Roman, Greek, and Mayan civilizations had marital type unions. Christians didn't invent the word marriage OR the institution, and the attempt to claim it as their own is offensive. It just is.

Berkley

09-01-2007, 12:10 AM

What you said here is HIGHLY offensive to me...

First of all, if discriminating against people is "right" and "good", then I must be bad and PROUD OF IT. I would NEVER use my personal beliefs to tell someone that they are a second class citizen and are not allowed to even enter into a legal contract because *I* don't like who they sleep with. Just like I would NEVER tell someone that they are not allowed to worship whatever God they want even if *I* think that their beliefs are closed minded and just plain MEAN. I am atheist. Personally, I don't believe in a deity because I think it is fairy tale like fantasy and quite frankly silly, but I would NEVER push for religion to be illegal because I understand that in this country, people are free to live their lives however they want. I guess that is the difference between you and me.

I will agree with you about one thing... kids that are raised in homosexual households probably won't end up with the same outlook of life as kids raised in "normal" households (although I think using the word normal for heterosexual households as if homosexual ones are somehow defective is very distasteful). Studies show time and time again that children raised in home with same sex parents actually grow up to be more loving, tolerant, forgiving, and compassionate towards people unlike themselves. The kind of stuff Jesus taught. I don't know how that can be construed as a BAD thing, but have at it. I would never refuse to let my kids stay the night with their friend based on their parents sexual orientation alone. NEVER. I will teach my kids compassion, tolerance, open mindedness, and how to respect people even if they are different.

Oh, and BTW, straight couples have the EXACT SAME number of gay kids as gay parents do. The ratio of gay kids to straight kids is EXACTLY THE SAME on both sides of the coin and always has been.

I'm glad you would teach your kids not to be outwardly hurtful to people. I will say that right off the bat. :tu

I am going to also say that comparing gay people to serial killers is not only illogical, it is offensive. Gay people don't go around ending the lives of other people. They just want the same legal rights that straight people get. They just want to be happy. NOT the same thing.

And BTW, being born with a chemical imbalance IS being born gay. LMAO. You can try to reason it away with possible treatments (which don't exist), but being born with a certain balance of chemicals in your brain that make you homosexual IS being born that way. Although, it is not chemical imbalances that science is finding to prove that gay is genetic, it is things like brain size and make-up. But you don't believe in "science" so I guess that doesn't matter right? Even if the same "science" created things like vaccines for kids, treatment and cures for formerly fatal diseases, antibiotics, organ transplants, fertility treatment, armor for our military members, etc... I guess science has it right EXCEPT for the things that you don't "believe in"? Technically, gender is a chemical imbalance, which is why there are TWO and not just one.

THANK YOU. I don't get what is so hard to understand about... "If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT." Why the constant need to stop everyone from doing what certain people find "immoral" or unacceptable, even if nothing they are doing actually hurts the people who are so against it? I think that based on the history of civilization, religion has done TONS of harm to human beings. I could list religious wars that have happened and are STILL happening that have caused the DEATHS of MILLIONS of people. But religion is wonderful while having sex with the wrong person, which results in the death of... Oh, NOBODY... is what's evil? Yeah, okay...

Okay, then accept and love gay people and let them have their LEGAL RIGHTS, and if you see it as such an immoral thing, then choose not to do it yourself. Why stop other people from living how THEY feel is morally right for THEM? Are the churches who are so against gays marrying going to be the ones who have to actually marry those people? Oh that's right... NO. Is a gay person getting married going to somehow stop straight people from being able to marry? Again, NO. I don't see gay people trying to take marriage away from straight people, even though straight people have done a whole lot to screw it up without the help of any gays. The divorce and infidelity rates are sky high without any help from gay people at all.

Funny, my cousin and many of my friends are gay and they have known from a very young age that they didn't choose it anymore than a straight person chooses to be straight. Hmmm, I wonder why that is. Maybe cuz everyone is different??

Who gave religion ownership of the word marriage? I have looked this up many times in the past for debates just like this... The Catholic church didn't even recognize marriage for the first 1000 years of it's existence, and the word marriage wasn't even used for the first time until around 1250 AD. So why do straight people, and not just straight people but religious straight people, get the word but no one else does? When corporations merge, it is called a marriage. Marriage is used in nautical context all the time referring to the marriage of ropes when they are tied together. Artists used the word marriage when talking about the colors they mix together for paintings. So, everyone but GAY PEOPLE can have the word? Marriage itself as a social union pre-dates Christianity. Ancient Roman, Greek, and Mayan civilizations had marital type unions. Christians didn't invent the word marriage OR the institution, and the attempt to claim it as their own is offensive. It just is.

I think I'm in love with you Trina! You said everything and more in a much more eloquent way then I ever could have.

harrisonsdream

09-01-2007, 12:16 AM

I think this comes from marriage being Biblical. Many would not object to a legal contract of a different name, say Civil Union. To some calling it marriage is against what they believe and have been taught is Biblically correct. I don't think so many would object if it were called by another name, honestly. I think it's the tradition of the word and the church ties attached to it that is the stickler and not so much the objection to the act of united two people of the same sex in a legal contract.

ETA: what is the true origin of the word marriage. I would google but I'm about to head to bed. I'll check tomorrow!

exactly calling it something other than marriage i'm perfectly fine with.

Wicked

09-01-2007, 12:24 AM

exactly calling it something other than marriage i'm perfectly fine with.

I actually wouldn't be against that either Jill. I would be all for calling it civil unions as long as gay people actually got RIGHTS. I just think that if marriage is going to be used to define a marriage between a man and a woman for religious reasons, then only religious institutions should use the word, and the government should only do civil unions no matter what sexual orientation you are.

harrisonsdream

09-01-2007, 12:24 AM

I actually wouldn't be against that either Jill. I would be all for calling it civil unions as long as gay people actually got RIGHTS. I just think that if marriage is going to be used to define a marriage between a man and a woman or religious reasons, then only religious institutions should use the word, and the government should only do civil unions no matter what sexual orientation you are.

that's a fair point too :)

valerie

09-01-2007, 12:27 AM

we in iowa are wonderful!!!!! GO IOWA!!! except a judge put a stay on the bill right after the first couple was married!!!

it pisses me off a lot. if people arent hurting you why should we care who gets married and who is together. I hope the stay is revoked so more couples in iowa can wed!

princessgwynn

09-01-2007, 01:44 AM

I disagree entirely...I do not agree that someone is "born gay" and I do not agree with any medical research that shows that they are. This is just a way to try to get society to accept that people are not taught this behavior. I do agree that someone may have a chemical un-ballencement that may cause such "gay thoughts" but this is something that is correctable. Just like people who have such chemicals that are not ballenced correctly and make them bipolar, suicidal...etc. If someone were to say "that serial killer killed because that is how they were born...they were born thinking killing is a natural behavior", would we say..."well, ok...if they were born that way...if their brain is configured to think you should kill, then it's ok for them" NO!! Just as you can't say "well, that boy was born thinking he should be with another boy...so let's let him do it, since he was born that way" I think a lot of things are being blamed on being "born that way" and it isn't an excuse.
And as for it making my child think it was "OK for them to say hurtful things to that person" I would also instill in my child that whether you like what someone is doing or not...we do not say hurtful things to them. You still may be friends with them and talk to them...and maybe once the child is old enough to understand right from wrong, yes they may be able to "hang with them after school"

I cannot even express how incredibly stupid, biggotted and close minded this sounds. I hope this is not a true representation of you.

What you said here is HIGHLY offensive to me...

First of all, if discriminating against people is "right" and "good", then I must be bad and PROUD OF IT. I would NEVER use my personal beliefs to tell someone that they are a second class citizen and are not allowed to even enter into a legal contract because *I* don't like who they sleep with. Just like I would NEVER tell someone that they are not allowed to worship whatever God they want even if *I* think that their beliefs are closed minded and just plain MEAN. I am atheist. Personally, I don't believe in a deity because I think it is fairy tale like fantasy and quite frankly silly, but I would NEVER push for religion to be illegal because I understand that in this country, people are free to live their lives however they want. I guess that is the difference between you and me.

I will agree with you about one thing... kids that are raised in homosexual households probably won't end up with the same outlook of life as kids raised in "normal" households (although I think using the word normal for heterosexual households as if homosexual ones are somehow defective is very distasteful). Studies show time and time again that children raised in home with same sex parents actually grow up to be more loving, tolerant, forgiving, and compassionate towards people unlike themselves. The kind of stuff Jesus taught. I don't know how that can be construed as a BAD thing, but have at it. I would never refuse to let my kids stay the night with their friend based on their parents sexual orientation alone. NEVER. I will teach my kids compassion, tolerance, open mindedness, and how to respect people even if they are different.

Oh, and BTW, straight couples have the EXACT SAME number of gay kids as gay parents do. The ratio of gay kids to straight kids is EXACTLY THE SAME on both sides of the coin and always has been.

I'm glad you would teach your kids not to be outwardly hurtful to people. I will say that right off the bat. :tu

I am going to also say that comparing gay people to serial killers is not only illogical, it is offensive. Gay people don't go around ending the lives of other people. They just want the same legal rights that straight people get. They just want to be happy. NOT the same thing.

And BTW, being born with a chemical imbalance IS being born gay. LMAO. You can try to reason it away with possible treatments (which don't exist), but being born with a certain balance of chemicals in your brain that make you homosexual IS being born that way. Although, it is not chemical imbalances that science is finding to prove that gay is genetic, it is things like brain size and make-up. But you don't believe in "science" so I guess that doesn't matter right? Even if the same "science" created things like vaccines for kids, treatment and cures for formerly fatal diseases, antibiotics, organ transplants, fertility treatment, armor for our military members, etc... I guess science has it right EXCEPT for the things that you don't "believe in"? Technically, gender is a chemical imbalance, which is why there are TWO and not just one.

THANK YOU. I don't get what is so hard to understand about... "If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT." Why the constant need to stop everyone from doing what certain people find "immoral" or unacceptable, even if nothing they are doing actually hurts the people who are so against it? I think that based on the history of civilization, religion has done TONS of harm to human beings. I could list religious wars that have happened and are STILL happening that have caused the DEATHS of MILLIONS of people. But religion is wonderful while having sex with the wrong person, which results in the death of... Oh, NOBODY... is what's evil? Yeah, okay...

Okay, then accept and love gay people and let them have their LEGAL RIGHTS, and if you see it as such an immoral thing, then choose not to do it yourself. Why stop other people from living how THEY feel is morally right for THEM? Are the churches who are so against gays marrying going to be the ones who have to actually marry those people? Oh that's right... NO. Is a gay person getting married going to somehow stop straight people from being able to marry? Again, NO. I don't see gay people trying to take marriage away from straight people, even though straight people have done a whole lot to screw it up without the help of any gays. The divorce and infidelity rates are sky high without any help from gay people at all.

Funny, my cousin and many of my friends are gay and they have known from a very young age that they didn't choose it anymore than a straight person chooses to be straight. Hmmm, I wonder why that is. Maybe cuz everyone is different??

Ok well this would be one way of saying that. I couldn't agree more. I guess I just don't understand how anyone living in a country fighting two wars on the premis of stopping ridiculous religous hatred can in any way justify that kind of belief system. Thanks for putting it so clearly, I am to angry to share more then this!

SIMMYBABEZ

09-01-2007, 02:39 AM

I'm stoked.

I saw a bumper sticker today saying "God is not a republican"

And whilst what I believe isn't exactly that....... It did make me think.

LAWS SHOULD NOT BE MADE BECAUSE OF RELIGION.

God- I'm atheist........ and many many MANY others are too... why should we have to live in a society that has laws dictated from the bible?

I find it outrageous and I'm so glad this state has ruled in favour for same sex marriages! It's brilliant! I'm happy :)

Loretta

09-01-2007, 03:54 AM

I would be all for calling it civil unions as long as gay people actually got RIGHTS. I just think that if marriage is going to be used to define a marriage between a man and a woman for religious reasons, then only religious institutions should use the word, and the government should only do civil unions no matter what sexual orientation you are.

I totally agree!!!!!

ChewiesBaby

09-01-2007, 09:38 AM

Who gave religion ownership of the word marriage? I have looked this up many times in the past for debates just like this... The Catholic church didn't even recognize marriage for the first 1000 years of it's existence, and the word marriage wasn't even used for the first time until around 1250 AD. So why do straight people, and not just straight people but religious straight people, get the word but no one else does? When corporations merge, it is called a marriage. Marriage is used in nautical context all the time referring to the marriage of ropes when they are tied together. Artists used the word marriage when talking about the colors they mix together for paintings. So, everyone but GAY PEOPLE can have the word? Marriage itself as a social union pre-dates Christianity. Ancient Roman, Greek, and Mayan civilizations had marital type unions. Christians didn't invent the word marriage OR the institution, and the attempt to claim it as their own is offensive. It just is.

I didn't say it was right but it seems to be the mindset. I think if those for gay rights would push it with a different angle (not call it marriage say), they might be received better. Traditionally marriage has always been man & woman or man & women or men & woman, lol... but both sexes are involved. There is traditionally a husband and a wife. Now just changing the word will only get you support from maybe half of who are against it because those ultra conservative "Christians" will not be swayed. Now you can love the sinner and hate the sin, which is what I believe is more the correct approach to doing what's right and good. Christians have no right to punish those who they feel are doing morally wrong, they are supposed to leave that up to God. They are supposed to love the sinner, hate the sin. You can be supportive of the person and be clear about your views on it at the same time.

harrisonsdream

09-01-2007, 11:38 AM

I didn't say it was right but it seems to be the mindset. I think if those for gay rights would push it with a different angle (not call it marriage say), they might be received better. Traditionally marriage has always been man & woman or man & women or men & woman, lol... but both sexes are involved. There is traditionally a husband and a wife. Now just changing the word will only get you support from maybe half of who are against it because those ultra conservative "Christians" will not be swayed. Now you can love the sinner and hate the sin, which is what I believe is more the correct approach to doing what's right and good. Christians have no right to punish those who they feel are doing morally wrong, they are supposed to leave that up to God. They are supposed to love the sinner, hate the sin. You can be supportive of the person and be clear about your views on it at the same time.

i'd be for it if it was called something different. and granted our country may not have been "founded on Christianity" but our laws follow basic moral laws/codes and the 10 commandments (thou shalt not kill, steal, etc etc)

Green~Mammy

09-01-2007, 11:45 AM

I would not say that is following the 10 commandments, more so it is common sense. HOWEVER if the laws were us modeling the 10 commandments there would be no exceptions for a crime. For example murder in self defense would still be murder and it would be punishable by something like stoning. You don't go to jail for not honoring your mother & father or coveting your neighbor either.

Vermont has civil union's they do not get all of the same rights & protections as people that are married. They still also have to deal with courts in different stats saying you are not in a civil union(VT) or you are not married (MA, IW) because they refuse to recognize same sex unions no matter what name it is going by.

NavyChiefs_Wife

09-01-2007, 11:47 AM

good for them. i hope other states do the same thing, i think it's wrong to deny anyone the right to get married.

dotb182

09-01-2007, 04:22 PM

Hope

09-01-2007, 11:57 PM

How do you know that no one in this forum is gay living with a life partner? (I have known gay men & women while in the service) Or that they have never questioned their sexuality? Maybe even are gay but in the closet? I know for a fact there are at the min bisexual women here. You are assuming no one here has or is dealing with this.

I am bipolar it is a mental illness homosexuality is NOT an illness! Way back in the 50's they thought it was the medical world has since thankfully improved vastly. Like wise the sociopath pr psychopath they are mentally ill to compare being GLBT to that is just wrong.

Is your friend Daniel a gay man that has gay relationships OR is he a born again Christian that suppresses his sex drive in order to live a sin free life? Just wondering because the only gay people I have met that thought that way were the born again variety.

Well, then they were not abiding by the UCMJ which states that they may not tell anyone of their homosexuality or engage in homosexual acts. I know exactly what the papers say when you join because I just joined. I think that it is fine that they were gay, but for them to continue practicing homosexual acts while in the military was wrong and illegal. Personally, I agree with wifenmommy. When I have children I will not let them spend time at the homes of friends who have homosexual parents. For me, homosexuality is immoral and not condoned by the Bible. I see it as deviant behavior. This is all my own opinion. While I do not agree with hate crimes, and I do not hate people who are gay, I don't feel that it is an acceptable alternative lifestyle and I resent the fact that it is shown so much in our media. If homosexuality were perfectly natural, then our species may have died out a long time ago. People of the same sex cannot reproduce. I got the pleasure of letting my sister know that she needed to explain to my six year old nephew the other day why his two female neighbors were making out. Call me ignorant, call me closeminded, call me what you will, but I was raised Catholic and these are my personal beliefs.

Green~Mammy

09-02-2007, 02:48 AM

And for those that have sex in ANY position but the missionary & for those that perform oral sex, or hold hands while their spouse is in uniform, or steal away to have sex on the base during family weekend after BCT graduation (or any other time), or sneak a kiss while in uniform out in public, there fore breaking the UCMJ that's ok right because they are not gay? The UCMJ is still being broken.

It is a don't ask don't tell policy, meaning they can not be asked their sexual preference and can not tell it. It is a discriminatory law and promotes gay bashing because they have no recourse if they are being harassed. When you live and work with people 24 hrs a day it is hard to not know that sort of thing. Even if they did not HAVE a boyfriend or a girlfriend at the time. DADT is a whole other debate though.

JKirstiH

09-02-2007, 03:27 AM

Heidi-What great writing!! I agree with you on everything!

FYI to the others:Gay couples ARE raising childen and they are adopting more than hetero. I think that I would rather a child be raised by a gay couple than in foster care or an abusive home. JMO

I wrote a paper on Gay Marriage for a Sociology course... and I decided to paste it here because it best sums up all my personal views on the matter.... (sorry it's so long... this is about as short as I could make it... lol)

~~~this is one of the few subjects that I'm absolutely passionate about. Not even because I'm pro-gay or whatever (I could actually care less about a person's orientation)... but because I think it's SO disgusting that we discriminate. Honestly... like I said above... who are we to determine who's love is legitimate? What makes a straight couple ANY better than a gay one?

Nobody's asking you (in general) to accept their lifestyle.... nobody's expecting you to march down Main Street USA with a rainbow banner and a gay pride t-shirt. All these people want is to have access to the same rights as everyone else. What's so wrong and immoral about that? (Not that immorality should even be a factor).

Man... I could talk for DAYS on this subject... but I'll hop off my little soapbox now.... (sorry this was so long)

JKirstiH

09-02-2007, 03:30 AM

Dotb182-I am so proud of your sister!! I know you are too! What an amazing family!!

LittleMsSunshine

09-02-2007, 03:35 AM

Heidi-What great writing!! I agree with you on everything!

FYI to the others:Gay couples ARE raising childen and they are adopting more than hetero. I think that I would rather a child be raised by a gay couple than in foster care or an abusive home. JMO

Aw shucks :wink

And I totally agree... being gay in no way inhibits a person's ability to love and nurture a child. :)

dotb182

09-02-2007, 12:17 PM

Dotb182-I am so proud of your sister!! I know you are too! What an amazing family!!

Thanks Jen. I couldn't be more proud of her. She basically had the whole town against her( or atleast most of them) and had " men of God" calling her every name in the book b/c of what she was trying to do. She's a tough little cookie, and now b/c of her my old hs has a gay tolerance club which is just awesome.

carol68134

09-02-2007, 01:06 PM

What you said here is HIGHLY offensive to me...

First of all, if discriminating against people is "right" and "good", then I must be bad and PROUD OF IT. I would NEVER use my personal beliefs to tell someone that they are a second class citizen and are not allowed to even enter into a legal contract because *I* don't like who they sleep with. Just like I would NEVER tell someone that they are not allowed to worship whatever God they want even if *I* think that their beliefs are closed minded and just plain MEAN. I am atheist. Personally, I don't believe in a deity because I think it is fairy tale like fantasy and quite frankly silly, but I would NEVER push for religion to be illegal because I understand that in this country, people are free to live their lives however they want. I guess that is the difference between you and me.

I will agree with you about one thing... kids that are raised in homosexual households probably won't end up with the same outlook of life as kids raised in "normal" households (although I think using the word normal for heterosexual households as if homosexual ones are somehow defective is very distasteful). Studies show time and time again that children raised in home with same sex parents actually grow up to be more loving, tolerant, forgiving, and compassionate towards people unlike themselves. The kind of stuff Jesus taught. I don't know how that can be construed as a BAD thing, but have at it. I would never refuse to let my kids stay the night with their friend based on their parents sexual orientation alone. NEVER. I will teach my kids compassion, tolerance, open mindedness, and how to respect people even if they are different.

Oh, and BTW, straight couples have the EXACT SAME number of gay kids as gay parents do. The ratio of gay kids to straight kids is EXACTLY THE SAME on both sides of the coin and always has been.

I'm glad you would teach your kids not to be outwardly hurtful to people. I will say that right off the bat. :tu

I am going to also say that comparing gay people to serial killers is not only illogical, it is offensive. Gay people don't go around ending the lives of other people. They just want the same legal rights that straight people get. They just want to be happy. NOT the same thing.

And BTW, being born with a chemical imbalance IS being born gay. LMAO. You can try to reason it away with possible treatments (which don't exist), but being born with a certain balance of chemicals in your brain that make you homosexual IS being born that way. Although, it is not chemical imbalances that science is finding to prove that gay is genetic, it is things like brain size and make-up. But you don't believe in "science" so I guess that doesn't matter right? Even if the same "science" created things like vaccines for kids, treatment and cures for formerly fatal diseases, antibiotics, organ transplants, fertility treatment, armor for our military members, etc... I guess science has it right EXCEPT for the things that you don't "believe in"? Technically, gender is a chemical imbalance, which is why there are TWO and not just one.

THANK YOU. I don't get what is so hard to understand about... "If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT." Why the constant need to stop everyone from doing what certain people find "immoral" or unacceptable, even if nothing they are doing actually hurts the people who are so against it? I think that based on the history of civilization, religion has done TONS of harm to human beings. I could list religious wars that have happened and are STILL happening that have caused the DEATHS of MILLIONS of people. But religion is wonderful while having sex with the wrong person, which results in the death of... Oh, NOBODY... is what's evil? Yeah, okay...

Okay, then accept and love gay people and let them have their LEGAL RIGHTS, and if you see it as such an immoral thing, then choose not to do it yourself. Why stop other people from living how THEY feel is morally right for THEM? Are the churches who are so against gays marrying going to be the ones who have to actually marry those people? Oh that's right... NO. Is a gay person getting married going to somehow stop straight people from being able to marry? Again, NO. I don't see gay people trying to take marriage away from straight people, even though straight people have done a whole lot to screw it up without the help of any gays. The divorce and infidelity rates are sky high without any help from gay people at all.

Funny, my cousin and many of my friends are gay and they have known from a very young age that they didn't choose it anymore than a straight person chooses to be straight. Hmmm, I wonder why that is. Maybe cuz everyone is different??

Who gave religion ownership of the word marriage? I have looked this up many times in the past for debates just like this... The Catholic church didn't even recognize marriage for the first 1000 years of it's existence, and the word marriage wasn't even used for the first time until around 1250 AD. So why do straight people, and not just straight people but religious straight people, get the word but no one else does? When corporations merge, it is called a marriage. Marriage is used in nautical context all the time referring to the marriage of ropes when they are tied together. Artists used the word marriage when talking about the colors they mix together for paintings. So, everyone but GAY PEOPLE can have the word? Marriage itself as a social union pre-dates Christianity. Ancient Roman, Greek, and Mayan civilizations had marital type unions. Christians didn't invent the word marriage OR the institution, and the attempt to claim it as their own is offensive. It just is.

Wow, this is the most intelligent and thoughtful post I've seen yet. Very well said, I wish I had your eloquence!

Wicked

09-02-2007, 03:44 PM

Well, then they were not abiding by the UCMJ which states that they may not tell anyone of their homosexuality or engage in homosexual acts. I know exactly what the papers say when you join because I just joined. I think that it is fine that they were gay, but for them to continue practicing homosexual acts while in the military was wrong and illegal. Personally, I agree with wifenmommy. When I have children I will not let them spend time at the homes of friends who have homosexual parents. For me, homosexuality is immoral and not condoned by the Bible. I see it as deviant behavior. This is all my own opinion. While I do not agree with hate crimes, and I do not hate people who are gay, I don't feel that it is an acceptable alternative lifestyle and I resent the fact that it is shown so much in our media. If homosexuality were perfectly natural, then our species may have died out a long time ago. People of the same sex cannot reproduce. I got the pleasure of letting my sister know that she needed to explain to my six year old nephew the other day why his two female neighbors were making out. Call me ignorant, call me closeminded, call me what you will, but I was raised Catholic and these are my personal beliefs.

Jamie already touched on the part about the UCMJ, so I won't repeat what she said. I will say that being gay is not against the UCMJ, just openly admitting it. But, I guess that's okay as long as it is just GAY PEOPLE. If someone told you that you could be Catholic but you couldn't tell anyone, wouldn't you find that offensive?

The things you say give a very contradictory picture of where you stand. You don't hate gay people but you think that they are deviants? (BTW, you can try the "I didn't call them deviants, I said their behavior is deviant" argument, but the definition of a deviant is someone whose behavior deviates from accepted behavior, so you DID call them deviants.) You resent that their "unacceptable" lifestyle is represented in the media? Sounds hateful to me. You obviously recognize your stance on this as closed minded and ignorant or you wouldn't have invited people to call you that claiming you don't care if you are because you are Catholic, so my question is why is that okay with you? It is okay to be "closed minded" and "ignorant"? I would never settle for that myself. I don't understand why religious belief gives anyone the excuse to discriminate. That is exactly the reasoning that al-Qaeda used when they attacked us. Their religion tells them that our western way of life is immoral. I would have thought that having the same logic applied to our country by another religion would open the eyes of people in this country to how dangerous it is. I guess not...

And BTW, homosexuality IS natural. Every species on earth, including humans, have an average of 10% of the population that is homosexual. If it was simply a "choice", how would that happen in the animal kingdom with animals that live off of instinct alone and are not capable or reason and decision making? It may not be natural for YOU, but I guess if it isn't natural for you, it can't possibly be natural for anyone. Should everyone have the same hair color, weight, and shoe size as you too?

And what does "they can not reproduce" mean? Since they can't have a baby together through sex alone, they are invalid and unworthy of marriage in your eyes? Well shit, I guess my husband and I don't have a legitimate marriage either and we should lose our right to enter into a legal contract with each other since I am infertile. Someone should have told me before I went through all of the trouble of changing my name and FUSING MY LIFE with his. :dunno

LittleMsSunshine

09-02-2007, 04:11 PM

And BTW, homosexuality IS natural. Every species on earth, including humans, have an average of 10% of the population that is homosexual. If it was simply a "choice", how would that happen int he animal kingdom with animals that live off of instinct alone and are not capable or reason and decision making? It may not be natural for YOU, but I guess if it isn't natural for you, it can't possibly be natural for everyone. Should every have the same hair color, weight, and shoe size as you too?

Mother Nature has shown numerous cases of it occurring in the wild. There have been hundreds of documented incidences of homosexuality within the animal kingdom. According to National Geographic writer/researcher James Owen,

"Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates."[3]

Owen also goes on to state that same-sex nesting is common with wild birds. Some even raise foster chicks. A study done by Frans de Waal determined that the African Bonobo, a type of ape closely related to Homo sapiens, has a large sexual appetite. He also confirmed that 75% of the Bonobo populations are bisexual.

(Source: James Owen, "Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate" National Geographic News. July 23, 2004 (25 November 2006))

There are TONS of studies out there that support what Trina said.... :)

Hope

09-02-2007, 06:05 PM

Jamie already touched on the part about the UCMJ, so I won't repeat what she said. I will say that being gay is not against the UCMJ, just openly admitting it. But, I guess that's okay as long as it is just GAY PEOPLE. If someone told you that you could be Catholic but you couldn't tell anyone, wouldn't you find that offensive?

The things you say give a very contradictory picture of where you stand. You don't hate gay people but you think that they are deviants? (BTW, you can try the "I didn't call them deviants, I said their behavior is deviant" argument, but the definition of a deviant is someone whose behavior deviates from accepted behavior, so you DID call them deviants.) You resent that their "unacceptable" lifestyle is represented in the media? Sounds hateful to me. You obviously recognize your stance on this as closed minded and ignorant or you wouldn't have invited people to call you that claiming you don't care if you are because you are Catholic, so my question is why is that okay with you? It is okay to be "closed minded" and "ignorant"? I would never settle for that myself. I don't understand why religious belief gives anyone the excuse to discriminate. That is exactly the reasoning that al-Qaeda used when they attacked us. Their religion tells them that our western way of life is immoral. I would have thought that having the same logic applied to our country by another religion would open the eyes of people in this country to how dangerous it is. I guess not...

And BTW, homosexuality IS natural. Every species on earth, including humans, have an average of 10% of the population that is homosexual. If it was simply a "choice", how would that happen in the animal kingdom with animals that live off of instinct alone and are not capable or reason and decision making? It may not be natural for YOU, but I guess if it isn't natural for you, it can't possibly be natural for anyone. Should everyone have the same hair color, weight, and shoe size as you too?

And what does "they can not reproduce" mean? Since they can't have a baby together through sex alone, they are invalid and unworthy of marriage in your eyes? Well shit, I guess my husband and I don't have a legitimate marriage either and we should lose our right to enter into a legal contract with each other since I am infertile. Someone should have told me before I went through all of the trouble of changing my name and FUSING MY LIFE with his. :dunno

I never said that people who cannot reproduce together are not worthy of marriage, so there is no need to take my personal opinions as an affront on your own marriage. I just don't believe that marriage is meant to be between two people of the same sex, for many reasons. It may surprise you to learn that back in high school I actually was a huge gay rights advocate. One of my best friends was a gay male, and I saw the direction his life headed in after he decided he was gay. Previous to this, he had had sexual relationships with females. His parents were accepting and kind. But he became promiscuous and incredibly in-your-face about his lifestyle. I didn't like that. But I supported him through it because he was my friend. But eventually he ended up shunning me and hanging out exclusively with people of his own sexual preference, which made me wonder where in the hell my best friend had gone. Without an exception, the homosexuals I have known (including my sister's best friends, my good friend's mother, etc) have had very odd lifestyles, not just in their sexual preferences, but in the fact that most of them were drug addicts, contracted STDs, and many other sad things at a rate much higher than the heterosexuals I have known.

I did not say that I believe that my views are closeminded, or that I am ignorant, simply that many people in today's politically correct world view my thoughts on morality, derived from traditional Judeo-Christian values as ignorant and backwards, although they were accepted norms of Western society for thousands of years.

I am not lying when I say I do not hate homosexuals. I simply don't agree with their choices or behaviors. That is my right. I do believe that if they want to be committed to one another, they can have civil unions, but marriage has been a longstanding tradition, religious and otherwise, between a female and a male. I am not trying to use my personal thoughts on their lifestyle as an excuse to attack them or force them to my way of thinking, as al-Queda did when they attacked us. The purpose of the attacks of terrorists is to quell unbelievers and impose Muslim law over them. I am not trying to impose Catholic law on anyone.

In my eyes, homosexual behavior is not acceptable behavior, as mandated by both my God and many long-standing laws, including laws in our country and in our military. That is why I don't feel that homosexual acts need to be portrayed so extensively by our media. If homosexuals want to be homosexual, let them do it in the privacy of their own homes, in their own bedrooms. I do not want my future children exposed to it while they are too young to understand gender relations.

Traci

09-02-2007, 06:10 PM

just another state i will never live in

That's how I feel. I don't want to get in a huge debate. I have already expressed my opinion before. I just do not agree.

Wicked

09-02-2007, 07:19 PM

I never said that people who cannot reproduce together are not worthy of marriage, so there is no need to take my personal opinions as an affront on your own marriage.

I never took it as a personal affront, but you DID use not being able to reproduce as a reason why homosexuality is unnatural, and homosexuality being unnatural as part of your explanation into why you are against gay marriage, so you DID say that they are unworthy of marriage because they can not reproduce. You can play semantics games with me all day, but it doesn't change the meaning of what you said. I don't care if you believe that way or not, but if you do just say it. Not a big deal.

I just don't believe that marriage is meant to be between two people of the same sex, for many reasons. It may surprise you to learn that back in high school I actually was a huge gay rights advocate. One of my best friends was a gay male, and I saw the direction his life headed in after he decided he was gay. Previous to this, he had had sexual relationships with females. His parents were accepting and kind. But he became promiscuous and incredibly in-your-face about his lifestyle. I didn't like that. But I supported him through it because he was my friend. But eventually he ended up shunning me and hanging out exclusively with people of his own sexual preference, which made me wonder where in the hell my best friend had gone. Without an exception, the homosexuals I have known (including my sister's best friends, my good friend's mother, etc) have had very odd lifestyles, not just in their sexual preferences, but in the fact that most of them were drug addicts, contracted STDs, and many other sad things at a rate much higher than the heterosexuals I have known.

So, because the homosexuals that you came into contact with lived questionable lifestyles which had nothing to do with actually being gay since none of the other behaviors you listed are exclusive to the gay community (drug abuse, abandoning friends, hanging out with like-minded people, contracting STD's) no gays should be allowed to legally marry? Let me tell you, every argument you listed there are just as prevalent in the heterosexual community. Read a few studies about the behaviors of high school students, most of which are STRAIGHT. That paragraph was a complete stereotype of the gay community, one that has been disproven as the norm over and over again.

If that's the way it works though, then I guess since a lot of religious people live their lives in ways that I find odd, I can deny them the right to marry if I want right? How about any christian that sins can't get married since they are living an alternative lifestyle from what is laid out in the bible? Good luck finding a christian that doesn't sin.

I did not say that I believe that my views are closeminded, or that I am ignorant, simply that many people in today's politically correct world view my thoughts on morality, derived from traditional Judeo-Christian values as ignorant and backwards, although they were accepted norms of Western society for thousands of years.

Explain to me how wanting to give everyone equal rights under the eyes of the LAW is attacking your beliefs? No one is telling you that you aren't allowed to believe whatever you want. No one is asking you to marry a gay person. No one is asking you to perform a marriage for a gay person, or even condone their marriages. All anyone is asking is for the ability to enter into the same kind of legal contract that you have the right to enter into. Simple as that.

For the sake of argument though, I will go with the whole "christian beliefs are being attacked" point, even if it doesn't really apply to equal LEGAL rights... Maybe for a minute consider that the traditional Judeo-Christian values that are now being attacked are not being attacked because they are religious values, but because they actually are backwards and ignorant. Just like slavery was considered the norm until society progressed to a place that made keeping another person as a slave unacceptable. Just like denying women the right to vote and earn equal wages was the norm until society progressed to a place where people weren't afraid to admit that women aren't inferior because they are different. What about the ancient societies talked about in the bible where a woman who could not prove her virginity was stoned to death, children who disobey their parents were stoned, not being home at a certain time on sabbath got you killed? What about the Psalm advocating revenge on enemies of God by bashing their babies heads on rocks? Is that how you would rather live? Since deviating from traditional values is so bad?

Modern day Judeo-Christian values that are commonly referred to as "traditional" as if that is the way things were always done are not as old as people seem to think they are. Those values have been shaped by society as well. From what I know of the bible, and of what Jesus taught, loving everyone and accepting and forgiving them their sins is more christian than judging them as sinners and punishing them. He hung out with prostitutes, thieves, and lepers all the time. He didn't deny them anything just because they did something wrong, he lead by example instead of force.

I am not lying when I say I do not hate homosexuals. I simply don't agree with their choices or behaviors. That is my right. I do believe that if they want to be committed to one another, they can have civil unions, but marriage has been a longstanding tradition, religious and otherwise, between a female and a male. I am not trying to use my personal thoughts on their lifestyle as an excuse to attack them or force them to my way of thinking, as al-Queda did when they attacked us. The purpose of the attacks of terrorists is to quell unbelievers and impose Muslim law over them. I am not trying to impose Catholic law on anyone.

Well, I will give you credit for not disagreeing with civil unions, but I still don't understand your logic. And like I have said before, keep the word marriage. If it means "only a man and a woman because my God says so" then I don't want it either.

In my eyes, homosexual behavior is not acceptable behavior, as mandated by both my God and many long-standing laws, including laws in our country and in our military. That is why I don't feel that homosexual acts need to be portrayed so extensively by our media. If homosexuals want to be homosexual, let them do it in the privacy of their own homes, in their own bedrooms. I do not want my future children exposed to it while they are too young to understand gender relations.

Yeah, I don't think that you have to worry about your kids. If they are straight, there is no amount of exposure to the gay lifestyle that can somehow magically make them homosexual. LOL. You aren't suddenly gay now even though you feel so overly exposed to the lifestyle, are you? It is up to you to teach them to either look down on gay people as "unacceptable" or teach them to "love one another" even if they are different. As much as people try to convince me that both are possible with a "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude, based on the actions of people who claim that I have yet to see it.

You can feel that homosexuality is unacceptable and shouldn't be portrayed by the media if you want, but that doesn't make it right just because it's your opinion. Or because that is what your church told you God wants. Or because law doesn't allow gays rights. Laws didn't allow African Americans rights either until people who disagreed with the long standing tradition of buying human beings for money based solely on the color of their skin stood up against the tradition. Tradition does not equal right.