so what do you think about it?

what do you think about people who get several fertility treatments done (ivf, etc)? do you think that they should consider adoption first, etc etc? those sorts of things

what about them?

i think they are wonderful but i just think that sometimes adoption might be the better way to go kwim? some of these families do fertility treatments more than once and end up with more than one set of multiples and then there's a big issue with that. i think that before just saying okay let's go through the process for fertility treatments (in vitro, etc) that they should give information on adoption b/c there are so many kids out there that need to be adopted

So what are you asking us to debate? Give us something to reference, etc.

So what are you asking us to debate? Give us something to reference, etc.

i edited my original thread

i think they are wonderful but i just think that sometimes adoption might be the better way to go kwim? some of these families do fertility treatments more than once and end up with more than one set of multiples and then there's a big issue with that. i think that before just saying okay let's go through the process for fertility treatments (in vitro, etc) that they should give information on adoption b/c there are so many kids out there that need to be adopted

Ditto this for sure.

I"m personally for both, my hubby and I are having trouble concieving and are planning on using fertility treatments, we also have talked about adoption even before we were married and found out that we'd have trouble conceiving. My grandparents have been foster parents for over 35 years and I have 3 family members that are adopted, so its always been an option for me.
I had always planned on possibly adopting 1-2 children, along with having children naturally. Then we found out about my problems, and decided we would at least try meds a few times and then would turn to adoption. Now if we get preggers once with meds we may/may not turn to meds again, we may choose to only use the meds successfully once and then turn to adoption since we have always considered that an option.

the meds (like Clomid and all that) i don't have as big of an issue with because the chance of higher order multiples is less but in vitro and other "invasive" fertility treatments that can produce quads, quints or higher order multiples seems soooo risky to me

I am infertile and I would MUCH rather adopt than go through infertility treatments. Not just go through treatment, but go through months of possible disappointment, even YEARS of possible disappointment, not to mention thousands and thousands of dollars, just to (if the treatment even works) go through another 9 months of sickness and hemorrhoid's and puking and getting fatter and after all that, PUSH A CHILD OUT OF MY BODY and risk having my hoo-hah cut open to make room and contractions and everything else? Yeah, give me adoption. LMAO.

I have never had that overwhelming desire to have a biological child though. It doesn't HAVE to be my DNA for me to love it and consider it my own.

the meds (like Clomid and all that) i don't have as big of an issue with because the chance of higher order multiples is less but in vitro and other "invasive" fertility treatments that can produce quads, quints or higher order multiples seems soooo risky to me

The drugs like clomid and such are a bigger problem with higher multiples. IVF can be more controlled......(the most fertilized eggs my aunt had put back in was 4 at at time). The drugs like clomid can make a woman's body produce many eggs and every one of them can then fertilize and implant. There is far less control when a drug like that is used and the body can just go haywire. IVF and the invasive type of procedures can be FAR more controlled!

The drugs like clomid and such are a bigger problem with higher multiples. IVF can be more controlled......(the most fertilized eggs my aunt had put back in was 4 at at time). The drugs like clomid can make a woman's body produce many eggs and every one of them can then fertilize and implant. There is far less control when a drug like that is used and the body can just go haywire. IVF and the invasive type of procedures can be FAR more controlled!

true, i guess i didn't think it all the way through. just most of the higher order multiples you hear about are from IVF

Since I am not nor have been in that position I don't know how I would feel. I am sure if I were TTC my thoughts would be different.

After losing 2 babies..Having all that treatment would be well worth it!! But if it didn't work...Then DH and I had talked about adopting. WE would want to try all of our options first....

I really think that a lot of couples now choose to do selective reduction. I saw a show where this couple had 5 fetuses and reduced it down to 3. That would be an awful choice to have to make after wanting and longing for even just 1 baby for so long. I really think that is why it's becoming more rare to hear of these really high mutiples. What a sad choice for them to have to make.......I couldn't imagine:depressed

Hmm... I used to think that if you were not able to have children it meant that God meant for you to adopt one, but if I were TTC, and I had fertility problems, I might consider treatments, as long as they were responsible (i.e. low chance of multiples). I would want to be able to carry a child. But that's just me.

I have a girlfriend who tried for yrs and couldn't get pregnant. So her and her DH went and did Invitro and got pregnant on the first time and now they have a beautiful 2yr old little girl. And she is pregnant again with a single baby and due around March. I believe so heartley in it...Just having a baby that is your flesh and blood means a great deal!! But like I said, if it didn't work for us, yes we would then consider adopting.

I think that adoption might not be for everyone. I think it is a persons right to want to have a family and if they can't do it on there on more power to them for seeking out aturnative ways. But I am for both.

I am actually going through all of this right now. We have done 1 IUI and have two more to go before we try IVF. For me I will exhaust every option and run the risk of having multiples before I will consider adoption. Just to be clear I am not aginst adoption in any way but to me the best part about being a mother is to have the whole experience. Having your child actually growing inside of you to me would be the greatest experience in the world. I don't think I would love an adopted child any less than my own but all of the pain and heartache of the fertility treatments is worth it to me to possibly have the chance to carry my own child.

I think that once you're in the position of needing to choose which embryos to kill off because you have multiples you have gone over the line into selfishness.

I am actually going through all of this right now. We have done 1 IUI and have two more to go before we try IVF. For me I will exhaust every option and run the risk of having multiples before I will consider adoption. Just to be clear I am not aginst adoption in any way but to me the best part about being a mother is to have the whole experience. Having your child actually growing inside of you to me would be the greatest experience in the world. I don't think I would love an adopted child any less than my own but all of the pain and heartache of the fertility treatments is worth it to me to possibly have the chance to carry my own child.

I completely agree with you!:yes

I think that once you're in the position of needing to choose which embryos to kill off because you have multiples you have gone over the line into selfishness.

Yep..If I had to choose, my babies life is what I choose....

But the show I watched........the couple doesn't choose which ones go........it was the ones that were easiest to reduce. It was also IMO not done out of selfishness.........it was done to save the lives of the remaining babies and give them more of a chance at being born healthy/full term:dunno

I don't see anything wrong with giving it a try.

I am sure if we had problems we would try it and if it didn't work in the first time or so we would start adoption and keep going.

I think that once you're in the position of needing to choose which embryos to kill off because you have multiples you have gone over the line into selfishness.

So what is more selfish.....trying to carry 7 babies and them all dying or being born with severe problems. I'm seriously asking because I am really on the fence about it.

I honestly think it's why I would never even choose to use the fertility drugs. I would only do IVF (which is more expensive) but at least there would be some control over how many eggs I choose to have put into my body!

So what is more selfish.....trying to carry 7 babies and them all dying or being born with severe problems. I'm seriously asking because I am really on the fence about it.


I understand what your saying. I guess for me it would be something I would have to think about b/c I have already lost two babies. But you are right though.

I would say that you should not even chance being in that position. Weeding through embryos like bean sprouts is disgusting and selfish. Oh this one has less of a chance, destroy it. I don't think it should ever be taken to that extreme. My personal belief. I understand wanting a kid, but damn. Thy cup runneth over so kill a few. Yeah that makes a whole lot of sense. There is a point where it is selfish and that is the point.

I have never had that overwhelming desire to have a biological child though. It doesn't HAVE to be my DNA for me to love it and consider it my own.


It's so much more than that though... to some women it's dreams of feeling the baby move, seeing a bump in your belly, being able to talk/sing to your little one in utero, having stories permanemtly etched into your skin as scars and stretch marks. These women could adopt and love the baby, even as their own, but there's still so much that they could never have.

I don't know. This thread is kind of like someone who doesn't vote complaining about the president, or someone who has never met a military member bitching about why our paychecks are way too much.. It's something you can't know unless you're there.

It's so much more than that though... to some women it's dreams of feeling the baby move, seeing a bump in your belly, being able to talk/sing to your little one in utero, having stories permanemtly etched into your skin as scars and stretch marks. These women could adopt and love the baby, even as their own, but there's still so much that they could never have.

I don't know. This thread is kind of like someone who doesn't vote complaining about the president, or someone who has never met a military member bitching about why our paychecks are way too much.. It's something you can't know unless you're there.

well as the starter of this thread i don't think it is even comparable. people speculate about what they would do or state how they feel all the time. i watched my aunt struggle with fertility issues (she was able to conceive but chronically miscarried). i think that instead of possibly having more children than you can afford, adopt some kids that need to be adopted.

It's so much more than that though... to some women it's dreams of feeling the baby move, seeing a bump in your belly, being able to talk/sing to your little one in utero, having stories permanemtly etched into your skin as scars and stretch marks. These women could adopt and love the baby, even as their own, but there's still so much that they could never have.

The same could be said for adoption though. Someone who gives birth to a biological child and doesn't adopt will never have that feeling of doing something so profound as saving a child from a certain lifetime of foster homes or poverty or being raised by someone who didn't want them. Someone who gives birth to a biological child and doesn't adopt will never get to experience the kind of love that comes from a child who knows that they were chosen by their parents instead of raised because they legally had to. LOL. (Not that that's the case with all biological parents and children, just something that adopted kids appreciate.) There are different experience in each scenario that are unique to that one, KWIM?

I don't know. This thread is kind of like someone who doesn't vote complaining about the president, or someone who has never met a military member bitching about why our paychecks are way too much.. It's something you can't know unless you're there.

I may not be responding as a biological parent, but I am responding as an infertile woman who is facing the choice of either going through fertility treatments or adopting to have a child. So, while I may not know what I am missing by having my own if I choose to adopt instead, someone who has never done through infertility issues or adopted will never know that side of the coin either. And in the grand scheme, it doesn't mean that I am any less capable of feeling the love between a parent and a child, or any less capable of appreciating what being a parent means or having a child means to your life.

My detachment from the need to physically bear my own biological children stems from the fact that I wasn't raised by my biological children. I know that I don't need to give birth to experience real parenthood.

Hope that made sense!

do what appeals to you, everyone is different, but you need to think about the posibilities that can come from them if you get one done...twins ect.

Also, not a lot of people can afford adopting. I know I can't...But my insurance we pay for me to have fertility treatment.

I would say that you should not even chance being in that position. Weeding through embryos like bean sprouts is disgusting and selfish. Oh this one has less of a chance, destroy it. I don't think it should ever be taken to that extreme. My personal belief. I understand wanting a kid, but damn. Thy cup runneth over so kill a few. Yeah that makes a whole lot of sense. There is a point where it is selfish and that is the point.

Having a child at all could be considered pretty selfish though. There are tons of starving children in this world, living in poverty and abusive homes. Why not adopt those instead of having a biological child? What are the reasons for having biological children in the first place besides to fulfill a selfish want for love or affection, or even a selfish want to fulfill some kind of religious obligation, despite the children already in the world that could easily fill the role without having to get pregnant at all.

Of course, I would never tell someone that they couldn't have a child if they wanted one, but really, it isn't much different. LOL.

Also, not a lot of people can afford adopting. I know I can't...But my insurance we pay for me to have fertility treatment.

Good point! I never thought of that. I wonder why that is though... Maybe insurance companies should consider paying for adoptions as well, to prevent having to pay the high cost of fertility treatments and prevent the health risks that a woman has during pregnancy and child birth. LOL. Like that would ever happen, but interesting thought...

Clomid is considered the "baby" of fertility drugs. You have a MUCH higher rate of multiples on injections and the like. The rate of twins on clomid is 10%. Triplets is like 3%. I know because I took clomid to conceive my son and went over all this with my Dr. Injections rates are much higher. Same with IVF. (providing you had 1 then more embryo implanted in you)

I will say this:
Unless you have personally gone thru infertility you cannot fathom the amount of pain there is involved. You can say you do but you really cant. I cannot say I understand what its like to be divorced because I have never been kwim? The desire to have a child is huge. Its in "most" womens instinct to want to be a mother. I tried for 9.5 years without the aid of fertility medications. I did research adoption. But I wanted to expierence being pregnant. Adoption I couldnt. I wanted to feel mine and my husbands baby growing inside of me. And thank god I did because at 9.5 years I did meds and I got pregnant. if I hadnt taken meds then my son wouldnt be here.

Adoption is GREAT. But it is VERY costly. Plus factor in the womans desire to want to carry her own baby. SHe should be given every chance to. Women with infertility that do treatments have just as much right to feel that lil baby growing inside of them as women who do not do fertility treatments.

Yes there should be more adoptions. But I think it should be that womans right to choose. She should be able to choose to do meds or what have you. I know of alot of people that HAVE adopted. And its an awesome thing. I woulda tried my level best to afford it etc if my fertility treatments had failed. But I wanted that chance to be pregnant, and expierence all that. Everyone is totally different

kaymara i respect you so much as a woman you have no idea :)

i think that they should offer all alternatives to fertility treatments (adoption, using a surrogate, etc) when you have your initial appts

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with infertility treatment and I'd never ever evvvvvvvvvver even go there by saying people should adopt before doing treatment.

Being a mother is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in my life. Being a mother is what gives me meaning and life and reason and a cause. It is my EVERYTHING. If I knew I could not have kids of my own, I'd definitely adopt. But if there is a chance in hell that I can have my own children, you better believe I'd do whatever I needed to do in order to achieve that, or at least TRY to achieve that. I could love a child that was not biologically mine, but if I can have a biological child or at least think there is a possibility of it, I can promise you I'd do whatever it took.

More power to people who would rather adopt, but adoption wouldn't be the first option for us and there is no way in hell that I'd ever look at someone who is suffering from infertility and tell them that they'd be better off to adopt.

i never said anyone should adopt instead of try infertility treatments i think that all information should be presented at initial appointments

kaymara i respect you so much as a woman you have no idea :)

i think that they should offer all alternatives to fertility treatments (adoption, using a surrogate, etc) when you have your initial appts

Thank you ;)

ALL options are dicussed usually once testing is done and they figure out whats the problem. If it is a sperm count and a problem with the woman they discuss what can be done as well as adoption and the like. So it isnt as if it isnt discussed. When we found out it was me who had the problem we discussed trying clomid, then iui, then injections and then from there was the costly options of ivf or adoption or surragocy etc.

A VERY good friend of mine is going thru infertility now. And they think they figured out her problem. And she may never be able to carry her own child. But she wants a child that is hers and her husbands. Which is her choice. So I offered to carry it if need be. I think every woman deserves that if they so choose. Obviously she is well aware of adoption. But what she wants at this point is a baby. I am fairly certain that if she had to adopt she would. I offered to do that for her tho because I know the pain of it all. But the same thing goes for those who do not need fertility treatments. Adoption is there for those as well ;)

Like I said I would LOVE to adopt. Sadly is it extremely costly.

I suppose handing out a booklet with any other information that they're given would be okay but I don't support an infertility doctor lecturing or pressuring a couple in any way. If I go in for infertility treatment, I'm not there to talk about adoption but I'd be open to looking through a free booklet of info or something of that nature.

Thank you ;)

ALL options are dicussed usually once testing is done and they figure out whats the problem. If it is a sperm count and a problem with the woman they discuss what can be done as well as adoption and the like. So it isnt as if it isnt discussed. When we found out it was me who had the problem we discussed trying clomid, then iui, then injections and then from there was the costly options of ivf or adoption or surragocy etc.

A VERY good friend of mine is going thru infertility now. And they think they figured out her problem. And she may never be able to carry her own child. But she wants a child that is hers and her husbands. Which is her choice. So I offered to carry it if need be. I think every woman deserves that if they so choose. Obviously she is well aware of adoption. But what she wants at this point is a baby. I am fairly certain that if she had to adopt she would. I offered to do that for her tho because I know the pain of it all. But the same thing goes for those who do not need fertility treatments. Adoption is there for those as well ;)

Like I said I would LOVE to adopt. Sadly is it extremely costly.
i learned something new today :) thank you for explaining what it's like when you actually go in.

Just the thought of me not being able to carry mine and DH's baby scares the living day lights out of me. After I lost the second baby, all I could think about was "Am I ever going to be able to give my DH a son or daughter? Am I ever going to feel the miracle that God gave me in my tummy and watch it grow?" Yes there is adoption, but a lot a people can't afford it...I know I sure in heck can't. Besides DH and I talked about how we would try everything from meds, injections, to IUI or even In vitro to be able to give us miracle from God. Ever since I was a kid, I always dreamed to be a mother and experience child birth and what not...

And like Brandy said, I would be turned off by a Dr if they tried to talk me out of my dreams of carrying a health baby to adopting. Don't get me wrong, adopting is awesome...But I want to share the mother and child bond from the beginning and give my DH a miracle from God. So adopting would be my last result...and if thats wrong of me..I am sorry.

Im kinda tipsy so excuse my writing...
I have fertility issues and I am dealing with treatments now. I will do everything an anything to have a baby. I want to carry my own child and have a baby. Till the day they tell me that I am a hopeless case I will do everything neccessary. And then I will consider adoption.

Im kinda tipsy so excuse my writing...
I have fertility issues and I am dealing with treatments now. I will do everything an anything to have a baby. I want to carry my own child and have a baby. Till the day they tell me that I am a hopeless case I will do everything neccessary. And then I will consider adoption.

I am with you there Cory! And I just wanted to say your too cute! LOL

It took DH and I a long while to get pregnant with Brian..and I know if we hadn't had success with it we would have tried Fertility treatments. If after a while of that not working we might have adopted. I think whatever option you decide is the right one. Some people would much rather carry and give birth to there own child, which is what I would want to try my hardest to do first.

I can't imagine many doctors that would try to talk someone out of fertility treatments. They wouldn't make any money by sending their patients elsewhere. LOL.

I can't imagine many doctors that would try to talk someone out of fertility treatments. They wouldn't make any money by sending their patients elsewhere. LOL.

LOL Good point!

I am with you there Cory! And I just wanted to say your too cute! LOL

Aww I love you Ang! We will get our babies! I just know it (L)

Aww I love you Ang! We will get our babies! I just know it (L)

Aww....Love ya too! I know we will...I am praying very hard for you and I and everyone else who is TTC!:pray:pray

I would personally feel totally offended if a doctor started to talk to me about adoption. To me that would have absolutely nothing to do with my health issues. IMO it's not a doctors place to ever discuss that.........that's a private issue, not a health one:yes

To be able to consider adoption, you need to grieve your inability to or the dream of a biological child first. If that means exhausting the possibilities of infertility treatments, then so be it. You really have to grieve the dream of bio kids before you can think of adoption first, and sure, some people say the cure to infertility is having a child, but in actuality it isn't. I still grieve for my lost babies, even though I now have one living son, and one to arrive very soon. If you have never felt or been through the pain of infertility or loss, you wouldn't know how you would react in that situation. And believe me, infertility treatments and testing is humiliating, and you wish you could just have a child normally.

I can't imagine many doctors that would try to talk someone out of fertility treatments. They wouldn't make any money by sending their patients elsewhere. LOL.

That is true. Cori, I too have fretility problems so I know where you are coming from. I have PCOS and my heart breaks because my husband and I been trying for 4 years and still no child yet. So I am in the process of having surgery. Since with PCOS my weight is an issuse. So gastric bypass frist lose my weight and hopfully that will help. If you ever need to chat drop me a line. Ronni

thank you ladies, this has been very very interesting and educational. you guys are amazing. i hope i didn't offend anyone.

To be able to consider adoption, you need to grieve your inability to or the dream of a biological child first. If that means exhausting the possibilities of infertility treatments, then so be it. You really have to grieve the dream of bio kids before you can think of adoption first, and sure, some people say the cure to infertility is having a child, but in actuality it isn't. I still grieve for my lost babies, even though I now have one living son, and one to arrive very soon. If you have never felt or been through the pain of infertility or loss, you wouldn't know how you would react in that situation. And believe me, infertility treatments and testing is humiliating, and you wish you could just have a child normally.

:lovesign I totally agree. I went through fertility testing and decided not to go through with treatment, but that doesn't mean that I didn't grieve the loss of my dream to have biological children. I never had that irresistible urge to have children, probably because I always took for granted that I could if I wanted to, but finding out that I couldn't was a HARD blow and one that took me a few years to finally move past. Realizing that I couldn't give my husband a biological child was extremely hard. I started missing things I never realized I wanted and I felt like there was something wrong with me, like I was less of a woman, less of a PERSON, because I couldn't get pregnant. I felt like if I couldn't do the ONE THING that women are biologically built to do, I was worthless. I was severely depressed for almost two years.

Someone who has never dealt with infertility has no idea how that could effect a person. The way it effected me was I gave up on the idea of kids altogether. Giving up on being a parent is the only way I could pull myself out of my depression. For other people, it makes their drive to conceive that much stronger.

I think that it is the individual choice of each family and that what ever they feel is best for them is what they should do. I think G'D gave us the tools to treat some forms of infertility so we should use those tools if we want.

No I don't think they should consider adoption first. As someone who has trouble conceiving a child myself, I would do anything possible to have my own child. I have thought of adoption but that doesn't make the want of my OWN child go away.

I really think it's up to personal choice. If I were unable to have children, I *personally* would not undergo any drastic measures (i.e. IVF, etc) to make sure I could have children. Actually, until I got pg with Lydia, I wasn't sure I could have children because I was with my X for 11 years and never even had a pregnancy scare and we did try a couple of times to have kids. I never got tested for infertility because we just figured that's the way things would be.

I would sooner adopt or not have children than take outside measures but that is my own personal belief.

I think whatever the couple wants is what they should do . Not everyone is cut out to be an adoptive parent. Some people cant love a child that is not biologicaly their own.

I feel if you have the money or your insurance is willing to cover the infertility treatments then go for it. If you had to pay out of pocket. My husband and I feel that we would go and adopt first. I have personally looked into both and with fertility treatments there are not gtd's that you will get pregant.

I think whatever the couple wants is what they should do . Not everyone is cut out to be an adoptive parent. Some people cant love a child that is not biologicaly their own.

I agree.

I think it is all personal choice. DH and I have not been able to get prego in almost 5 years of trying. We are willing to do ANY treatment in order for us to have a biological child. That is not to say we are not open to adoption. We have considered both options and for us, doing fertility treatment is our number one choice.

I don't know if IVF and fertility treatments are something we'd consider, but if a couple chooses to go that route that's their business. It's not my place to try and talk them into adopting.

Clomid is considered the "baby" of fertility drugs. You have a MUCH higher rate of multiples on injections and the like. The rate of twins on clomid is 10%. Triplets is like 3%. I know because I took clomid to conceive my son and went over all this with my Dr. Injections rates are much higher. Same with IVF. (providing you had 1 then more embryo implanted in you)

I will say this:
Unless you have personally gone thru infertility you cannot fathom the amount of pain there is involved. You can say you do but you really cant. I cannot say I understand what its like to be divorced because I have never been kwim? The desire to have a child is huge. Its in "most" womens instinct to want to be a mother. I tried for 9.5 years without the aid of fertility medications. I did research adoption. But I wanted to expierence being pregnant. Adoption I couldnt. I wanted to feel mine and my husbands baby growing inside of me. And thank god I did because at 9.5 years I did meds and I got pregnant. if I hadnt taken meds then my son wouldnt be here.

Adoption is GREAT. But it is VERY costly. Plus factor in the womans desire to want to carry her own baby. SHe should be given every chance to. Women with infertility that do treatments have just as much right to feel that lil baby growing inside of them as women who do not do fertility treatments.

Yes there should be more adoptions. But I think it should be that womans right to choose. She should be able to choose to do meds or what have you. I know of alot of people that HAVE adopted. And its an awesome thing. I woulda tried my level best to afford it etc if my fertility treatments had failed. But I wanted that chance to be pregnant, and expierence all that. Everyone is totally different

100% agreed. Thanks for posting the percentages. People seem to have Clomid confused with injectables.

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with infertility treatment and I'd never ever evvvvvvvvvver even go there by saying people should adopt before doing treatment.

Being a mother is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in my life. Being a mother is what gives me meaning and life and reason and a cause. It is my EVERYTHING. If I knew I could not have kids of my own, I'd definitely adopt. But if there is a chance in hell that I can have my own children, you better believe I'd do whatever I needed to do in order to achieve that, or at least TRY to achieve that. I could love a child that was not biologically mine, but if I can have a biological child or at least think there is a possibility of it, I can promise you I'd do whatever it took.

More power to people who would rather adopt, but adoption wouldn't be the first option for us and there is no way in hell that I'd ever look at someone who is suffering from infertility and tell them that they'd be better off to adopt.

A-MEN sister.


To be able to consider adoption, you need to grieve your inability to or the dream of a biological child first. If that means exhausting the possibilities of infertility treatments, then so be it. You really have to grieve the dream of bio kids before you can think of adoption first, and sure, some people say the cure to infertility is having a child, but in actuality it isn't. I still grieve for my lost babies, even though I now have one living son, and one to arrive very soon. If you have never felt or been through the pain of infertility or loss, you wouldn't know how you would react in that situation. And believe me, infertility treatments and testing is humiliating, and you wish you could just have a child normally.

Great points.